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  1. #31
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    ^ Being happy and errr.... stable doesn't necessarily equate to being healthy in enneagram context. I think hitting the high levels require a lot of inner work. In other words, it takes effort and not simply a compare and contrast of stable/unstable of the then and now. I'm more stable than in the past (not due to anything special, just a bit more awareness and maturity), but I would say that I'm still in the average-ish levels. I also think "health levels" are kind of silly. It's too rigid thinking.

    Anyways, I don't see the point of differentiating healthy and unhealthy so much. Most people fall back to the unhealthy ranges anyways. If anybody were to nitpick like that, well, it seems kind of shallow. The only thing we can hope for in others (and ourselves) is the ability to step back from our egos from time to time, the ability to compromise when the situation calls for it, more awareness - not just self-awareness, but AWARENESS.

  2. #32
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @Loki It's shallow to be attracted to an emotionally healthy person? I agree that we all fluctuate in health, but I once functioned consistently in the unhealthy ranges (6-9), now it's a full on bad day if I dip to 5. If a person makes emotional/psychological health a priority, and surrounds themself with a support system of other health-seeking people, then the high health levels are absolutely attainable. Of course it takes serious inner work to grow, not to mention maintaining! Did I imply that my transition to health was effortless?

    Awareness comes from emotional health.

    My case is this: I can't stand 2's, they fact that they lie to themselves makes me livid. Funny thing though, my best friend is a 2. The difference is that she is consistently seeking health, did group therapy, asks me to hold her accountable (it goes both ways), etc. That makes such a huge difference, her positive 2 traits can shine! She still slips into not taking care of herself and gets a little passive aggressive, but she can catch herself now! Healthy people can admit their crap, that's the difference.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    9's are good medicine for us and 3's are refreshing. Both of these types seem to quell our reactivity issues, the 9's peace and calm, the 3's focus. This has been extremely helpful for this 6 because when I deteriorate it gets ugly fast, and I waste soo much time ping-ponging around. I think we naturally open up to 9's because we sense they are the least threatening and judgemental, which is something I have greatly admired in my 9. The 3 pairing can be very advantageous, moving mountains with shared goals. They also tend to value loyalty and clearly defined expectations which helps alleviate any support network fears.

    Next up would be 8's. Like the 3, 8's seem to have clearly defined needs and expectations. They follow through with what they say and are typically above board. All stuff that keeps the 6 smooth sailing. I have noticed alot of 8's drawn to me in friendships, professionally and romantically. 8's soon find that they can confide their more vulnerable parts to the 6 without 6's wanting to de-throne them and take their damn castle, which the 8's seem to really appreciate, lol.

    5's and 6's can have fantastic conversations, spinning ideas for hours, but the relation takes an overly cerebral tone. I got a lil jealous one time when a 5 I've known for years opened up emotionally to a 4 friend of ours he had only known a few months. I later realized that it was just a far more natural exchange between the two types, and one that can be crucial to 5's development, probably another reason the 5-2 pairing is common.. heart types not only emphasize identifying emotions but create a safe haven for 5's to awkwardly explore. 5-6 relation could work but I think both types would be missing out on their primary needs for development.

    Ofcourse with health and maturity any types blahbleh, blahbleh, meh.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #34
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    No clue. I think I hate all the types.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @Loki It's shallow to be attracted to an emotionally healthy person?
    No. But it's shallow to nitpick for it and deflecting any human flaw is what I meant. I think I know what you mean though. I'll be honest, when I see people relating to the health levels in the 1-3 range (from enneagram institute site), my initial reaction is "really?" It just sounds so ideal and unrealistic (especially 1 and 2 range). Sounds like something the ego would prematurely identify with you know? And sounds too rigid. I know it's just a guideline, but still...

    Edit: Also, it's like when people say that they are drawn to this or that type, but then single out a specific type in the "need to be healthy range". Or the "but they're great when healthy". My reaction is wtf?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No. But it's shallow to nitpick for it and deflecting any human flaw is what I meant. I think I know what you mean though. I'll be honest, when I see people relating to the health levels in the 1-3 range (from enneagram institute site), my initial reaction is "really?" It just sounds so ideal and unrealistic (especially 1 and 2 range). Sounds like something the ego would prematurely identify with you know? And sounds too rigid. I know it's just a guideline, but still...

    Edit: Also, it's like when people say that they are drawn to this or that type, but then single out a specific type in the "need to be healthy range". Or the "but they're great when healthy". My reaction is wtf?
    Agree.

    I believe you need to be able to still be attracted to someone when they are unhealthy, otherwise things are doomed, this is different to being attracted to someone because they are unhealthy. If you can't handle the weaknesses of a type then you should stay away from mixing them with romance because we all fall under stress.'

    ETA: this is actually part of why I am interested in 6s, at their worst I still find myself drawn in.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I've bolded everything that I was absolutely guilty of as an immature, unhealthy 4. I totally get why someone would be confused, frustrated and hurt by this behavior. That being said, all of those behaviors apply only to unhealthy 4's. Just like an unhealthy 4, an unhealthy 6, 7, 2, etc. can be equally as confusing, frustrating and hurtful. I just hope that everyone would really keep health in mind when making generalized statements (or reaching generalized conclusions) about any of the types.

    I'm surprised actually that the OP question wouldn't be answered with a relatively healthy individual in mind (instead of the unhealthy one you described here). I wouldn't be attracted to an unhealthy 4 either, but what about a healthy 4? Or 8 even, that was another type that was mostly portrayed here in it's unhealthy form.

    Just a thought.
    I understand that line of reasoning, but at the same time, most people straddle between the slightly-above-average to slightly-below-average health levels - as @Loki said, few of us could be considered truly "healthy" in an Enneagram sense.

    And at least for my own descriptions, all that I am saying is meant to be personal commentary and not meant as any definitive conclusions about the types. As I already emphasized, it's my opinion and my feelings. It's actually a funny example of the mismatch between me and 4s that both you and another 4 have raised objections to my posts in here, when I don't really feel like there's anything in my posts to object - in my opinion, you can't really object to someone's personal feelings; they just are. Maybe you could object to the soundness of their origin, but not really to the existence of the feelings themselves. And regardless of reasoning, be it my MBTI preferences, my Enneagram defense mechanisms, my instinctual priorities, and/or my past experiences, I'm really just not that drawn to 4s, 8s, or 1s, healthy or not.

    It seems to me that general attraction or lack thereof is just natural fallout from combination of personality, behavior, experience, values, and other psyche elements, and many of the trends are going to hold true regardless of levels of health, since they're more amplifications than shifts. Even if I would take a healthy 4 over an unhealthy 9, there are still aspects of 4ness that are harder for me to deal with, and aspects of 9 that attract me, and as such I might still be drawn more to the 9. I also think the reason that people have tended to cite unhealthy behaviors is that even overall very healthy people will dip in health level from time to time, and those dips can really be dealbreakers in terms of ease of getting along. It's like what I said with 6s - I love another 6 when they're sailing smoothly, since we can analyze and bond together. But when there's another 6 around who's clearly in the throes of a freakout, I generally try to leave the situation, because I'm aware of how badly that can impact me. It's hard to be drawn to someone when you know that sort of exchange is looming on the horizon.

    In any case, being drawn to a certain type doesn't necessarily mean much in the long run. One of my best friends is a 3w4, two are probably 2w1s, another is probably a 7w8, another is confirmed 7w6. One of my favorite managers at work is probably an 8w9, another probably 9w8. My boyfriend is really close between 9 and 1. One of my favorite online friends is a 5w6 and another is a 4w5. Those relationships are all across the board in terms of who I'm drawn to or not. Surface attraction is great to kick-start positive relationships, but I don't think it has a very strong correlation with significant longterm bonding.
    Last edited by skylights; 02-26-2013 at 11:53 PM. Reason: clarification

  8. #38
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Oops, I didn't realize I was responded to (sorry about that)!

    I agree with a lot of what's been said, specifically that one should be capable of loving/attracted to a person even if health declines (for better or for worse, yes?). I didn't mean to imply that any of you are wrong for not being drawn to 4's (that would be silly), it was just the attribution of very unhealthy 4 behaviors to all 4's that irked me. I think the bottom line about attraction is that it shouldn't be based on type at all, I've been realizing this more and more. I have been attracted to types that I'd all but written off, and been rubbed the wrong way by types I thought I always loved. No such thing as always or never, I suppose.

    @Loki and @skylights: Thanks for your responses and thoughts, I appreciate the acknowledgement when you could have easily just ignored me. -^_^-
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  9. #39
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    I had initially thought e9, but I'm actually thinking my most recent relationship may have been a 6. But I'm not certain.

    He definitely was extremely slow to trust and had a tendency of seeing untrustworthy motivations in other people where I would not have attributed those motives. We never got to the "loyalty" part (which seems like a strength of healthy 6?) as I just couldn't handle some other issues in the relationship and ended up breaking up with him. Him reading into situations so negatively was starting to drag me down too. Plus in terms of confrontations, weirdly, as the 9, I had to be the one to bring up issues. And it seemed to me he was letting other people/circumstances dictate his decisions rather than setting his own priorities. That latter stuff seems possibly more 9. So I don't know if he was 9 or 6 or something else.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    Anyways, I don't see the point of differentiating healthy and unhealthy so much. Most people fall back to the unhealthy ranges anyways. If anybody were to nitpick like that, well, it seems kind of shallow. The only thing we can hope for in others (and ourselves) is the ability to step back from our egos from time to time, the ability to compromise when the situation calls for it, more awareness - not just self-awareness, but AWARENESS.
    It matters a lot actually. It isn't shallow.

    I don't think that "unhealthy" people should be shunned, insulted, or pushed out as members of a group, as friends, as family members, as people (unless they are actively hurting us, then of course distance is required) ...I functioned somewhere between 5-7 for quite some time, but of course not with all people. I could be at a 3-4 with helpful supportive people, which probably actually puts me at a 4 since I required to "be with my own" to be healthy, a 6 who needs to be with her own protective sphere to act healthy probably isn't at the highest levels but just at 4, investing into what is "safe." But with "outsiders" or even in the context of romantic relationships...um yeah. Sarcastic, reactive, defensive, "us versus them," etc.

    I've even gone down to the lowest levels of health back when I was attempting to cope with my (now nearly non-existent) panic disorder.

    The healthier I am, the healthier people I end up with. I mean, in an intimate relationship, when you first meet someone, you often either pair up with someone about the same level of messed up as you are, even if the issues aren't the same. Your issues might be more like clingy and enabling, but that clinginess and enabling is what is keeping you in a relationship with a drug addict (not you, just as an example of a couple having similar levels, but very different issues).

    And relationships have a funny way of ending when one partner starts getting progressively healthier and the other refuses to change even marginally to help themselves, or if one partner becomes so extremely deeply off the deep end unhealthy that having a relationship really isn't very plausible.

    It's not that couples shouldn't stick together through the ups and downs of life, they should, but I think people generally gravitate and may hang out and tolerate someone with a more similar level of "health."

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