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    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Default e5 development

    i can't even read the article right now (because i'm waiting an account activation on the socionics site), but wind-up rex linked me to a thread about enneagram development (the missing piece) that seems to mirror my own understanding of the enneagram.

    i've been playing with stress and security points as "ego-ideal" and "shadow." i think you need to stabilize your ego-ideal so that you don't split when under stress. the split is the basis of neurosis. so that you take the high side of your egoic negotiation partner ego and develop supporting, mature ways of self-parenting. you reconcile your situation by adopting alternative sets of behaviors that respond to the situation in a varying length of future/need adjustment. and balancing the short vs long-term change is a significant part of what makes an investment good.

    i can find fun, sometimes, like an e7, and really improve my mood. but this isn't what i need to do. at least in the sense that it's not about spending the rest of your resources to experience positive things as much as it is to create more spaciousness in my appreciation of process. to create more appreciation, more enjoyment in experience for what it is, to stay with my body more and enjoy change for the sake of change.

    it is this e7 development, this ability to enjoy sobriety, to enjoy work, to enjoy process, to enjoy time as it unfolds and not resist but learn to be more and more present (which e7s are the best at of all types), to improve and optimize where you are at in your story regardless of the meanings of everything that territorialize your world, self, and experience, that is the antidote for e5 hoarding of ideas. for having infinite constructs to mediate experience. for having a mental world that is bigger than the world that you experience outside of yourself, whose gravity crushes this one and your ability to experience this one in a spacious way, to locate yourself in the openness of this one, etc.

    moreover, it most of all effects your ability to integrate your shadow in healthy ways. it goes like this. creating space for yourself in your own experience helps you create enjoyment. appreciation. it helps you optimize by always having/being able to recognize positive aspects to build on. this helps you move forward. this gives you a starting capital. this helps you do the beginning work of always being able to build something from nothing (THE lesson that the 7w6s in my life continually give to me). so what the e7 masters is momentum. they have learned at a young age how to keep their mood high. and they can spread and infect others with this positive energy. but they do so by seeking out extreme pleasures. my entp 7w6 sx/so friend, the highest "level of development" person i have ever met, consistently shows me that there is a way to do this while letting go of possibilities and accepting self-responsibility is the central starting point of this. the healthy chakra 3 sense of self-efficacy, personal power, a desire to do better on no one else's terms but your own, to do better because you know that improving your story will keep your mood high, while, at the same time, taking on the responsibility to see how you effect others through your actions and recognizing that although you cannot control anything but yourself, attempting to give others what they want and create mutual benefit creates positive emotional well-being that will help you flow with the world with less and less resistance (the opposite of what skeptical, you must be against me, you must be trying to control me e5s are like).

    so, while 7s have mastered the art of momentum, which is one highly contingent on emotional/motivational energy, on mood, and on ways of anchoring that mood to real, tangible experiences (rather than meanings) that help you tell your story in positive ways, that help you optimize stories and remember the historical-for-you improvements of the positive changes you have been a part of and have been present enough to truly savor and ground yourself in (a recursive power so you are less trapped by the immediate moment of mood but are instead anchored to a story/process that you can truly have faith in, a way of truly TRUSTING TIME that allows you to move with rather than against the world), they teach us that the POWER of e8, the FORCE of e8 that we deny in ourselves is largely in part a denial of our mood as well, of our MOMENTUM. you cannot have power/force without momentum. we will not be able to act until we create mood energy that allows us to do so. that allows us to have a greater circulation of BELIEF currency (in ourselves, in others, in our projects, in the world, in the value of acting on our ideas, in the value of experience as it is, in the the value of changing what is in order to explore the range of what we can truly do from where we are at regardless of the overarching explanations we give about what is possible). the immense inertia of our own inner world's that we hold on to, the weight of them, prevents us from creating momentum for ourselves, from letting go of constructs and exploring experience as it is to feel the spaciousness in our own action potential, to be present enough to realize possibilities that WE can influence if we take and develop the momentum to be responsible for them. to not feel powerless in an immensely complex system but to start working outward from the present moment and FINDING APPRECIATION, something small to start building on. this is how, rather than explaining the world, you focus on telling your own story to the best of your ability. hoping that this turns into greater degrees of self-responsibility that then reach some of the magnanimity of e8, as you start to help others optimize their stories as well by believing in your own power enough to give without fearing that you will not receive what you need. in other words, once we learn to manage our mood as a concept of momentum that we have anchored to our self-responsibility for our own story first and foremost, focusing on what we can control rather than on seeking out explanations of the ways we lose control in the world (the emptiness of abstract rationality), we learn to believe in being present, that by being present and engaged time will reveal to us what is possible and where we can--and need to--go.

    for e7s, by contrast, th e5 shadow, staying long enough to build deeper attachments and to trust that the mastery that comes from honoring even the sentimental in our lives, that which promotes a desire to understand more deeply that itself can add deeper and deeper challenges for one's own momentum and ability to move as freely as possible (rather than adding on more and more responsibilities to others), that can at times take on the form of self-willed ignorance to the full reality of the other and the desire to instead only accept them on terms that are blinded by rose-colored glasses (which then allow for an avoidance of true recognition and kinds of acceptance that are more challenging because they are more committed to the best truth you can make), is necessary for a more authentic kind of optimism/optimization process. to identify with both the good AND THE BAD is to truly know the stakes.

    either way, momentum expertise is kind of the tangibility of faith.

  2. #2
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    In terms of "development", and speaking as a type 5...

    The trick is to become comfortable with what I call being "expansive", or being a "raw nerve". It's not just that there's more available of you to others, it's that your presence becomes bigger & bigger by what you encounter. You're not cultivating your own tiny, little world and inadvertently sucking the air out of the room - you're expanding into every corner, letting your emotions & needs flow naturally and enveloping everything around you. You're not hoarding anything into your own tiny little frame anymore, you become connected to & invigorated by everything around you. Instead of being small, withholding, you're big, expansive.

    So, I guess in analytical/enneagram terms, that's integrating with point 8. But I tried to describe it experientially.

    The type 7 stuff? I guess that's when I tend to stay in my own little world and over-think things - my mind is going a thousand miles a second, jumping from one thought to the next, with little time for anything else.
    Hello

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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    In terms of "development", and speaking as a type 5...

    The trick is to become comfortable with what I call being "expansive", or being a "raw nerve". It's not just that there's more available of you to others, it's that your presence becomes bigger & bigger by what you encounter. You're not cultivating your own tiny, little world and inadvertently sucking the air out of the room - you're expanding into every corner, letting your emotions & needs flow naturally and enveloping everything around you. You're not hoarding anything into your own tiny little frame anymore, you become connected to & invigorated by everything around you. Instead of being small, withholding, you're big, expansive.
    I loved this description, it makes perfect sense.

    Would you say this is easiest acheived once the Type 5 has found their niche in life and is admired/appreciated for their specific area of competence? Which then leads to an all round air of calm, happiness and openness which shines through in all social situations, (and not just competence-related ones or in the small social circle which shares common interests).

    Or am I thinking too much in "NT" terms (as my enneagram understanding is limited)/

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    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I loved this description, it makes perfect sense.

    Would you say this is easiest acheived once the Type 5 has found their niche in life and is admired/appreciated for their specific area of competence? Which then leads to an all round air of calm, happiness and openness which shines through in all social situations, (and not just competence-related ones or in the small social circle which shares common interests).

    Or am I thinking too much in "NT" terms (as my enneagram understanding is limited)/
    Not really, there's no pre-requisite beyond trusting your own feelings & instincts over your intellect.
    Last edited by VagrantFarce; 11-13-2012 at 10:55 AM.

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    I can Ji myself into a corner so the act of restarting interactions has often been my safety net, which makes them so tiring because I desire something like the momentum you describe but project project project like any old infp. Then again, the only way I've managed to teach myself how to call a spade a spade is by stepping back, literally and figuratively but I've felt another transition take steam in these past several months with my street experiments, spiritual engagements, release of voices, openness to the ride.

    Trust and anticipate your rates of processing without overthinking, I tell others. Acknowledge your personal power without regret but sow the shit out of that integrity. 46 chromosomes in a somatic cell, but you're complex enough for me, OrangeAppled, even if there's 50 million sharing half of your likeness on planet earth, 10 at 75% and another 50k who're pretty much identical who could also live within a mile radius of anyone who logs onto this forum. These 27 years have been one long conversation with all 10,000 of the voices in my head, the puzzle that grows 10x faster than you're able to solve it; one flesh, one blood as the christians say.

    Living normally seems to require acknowledgement that you'll never fully understand what the voices are saying and why they never let up.

    That said, can I touch it, state.

    thinking of you

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    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleuthiness View Post
    I can Ji myself into a corner so the act of restarting interactions has often been my safety net, which makes them so tiring because I desire something like the momentum you describe but project project project like any old infp. Then again, the only way I've managed to teach myself how to call a spade a spade is by stepping back, literally and figuratively but I've felt another transition take steam in these past several months with my street experiments, spiritual engagements, release of voices, openness to the ride.

    Trust and anticipate your rates of processing without overthinking, I tell others. Acknowledge your personal power without regret but sow the shit out of that integrity. 46 chromosomes in a somatic cell, but you're complex enough for me, OrangeAppled, even if there's 50 million sharing half of your likeness on planet earth, 10 at 75% and another 50k who're pretty much identical who could also live within a mile radius of anyone who logs onto this forum. These 27 years have been one long conversation with all 10,000 of the voices in my head, the puzzle that grows 10x faster than you're able to solve it; one flesh, one blood as the christians say.
    this makes me remember the line from trains across the sea, "i drunk 50 thousand beers, they just wash against me, like the sea into a pier"

    and yeah, the value of uniqueness is impossible to discern but still somehow built into us (when that uniqueness is like us enough to resonate with our identified, perceived sense of uniqueness). meanwhile, without the uniqueness of a path through the whole thing there is no thing and there is no experience to move the wheels of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleuthiness View Post
    Living normally seems to require acknowledgement that you'll never fully understand what the voices are saying and why they never let up.
    i agree 100%.

    also, this is the place of t, right? why death metal can have one palette and just keep going? to recognize and isolate the part of life seen simply as a concretely bounded physical process, as an instinct to survive that upholds the boundaries of the body? harmony is elusive and always seems to be hurtling into some new unknowable space, shifting and quaking along newly emerging fault lines, despite the seeming repetition in the progression cycling on and on.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleuthiness View Post
    That said, can I touch it, state.
    i've heard of your cold, cold hands, bjq.

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    I've always felt E5 integration is what happens when the E5 decides to take firm assertive action. They spend all this time in "knowledge is power" mode, and once they've collected all the knowledge they need, BOOM, you can't stop them from doing what they want because they f***ing know how right they are. From what I understand, integration isn't something that happens necessarily by choice, but under the right prerequisite circumstances.

    Meanwhile E8's just feel right all the time, which makes them huge ass holes... haha.

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    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    why death metal can have one palette and just keep going? to recognize and isolate the part of life seen simply as a concretely bounded physical process, as an instinct to survive that upholds the boundaries of the body? harmony is elusive and always seems to be hurtling into some new unknowable space, shifting and quaking along newly emerging fault lines, despite the seeming repetition in the progression cycling on and on.
    So this is why I like death metal?

    Well, on a more serious note, I do enjoy death metal exactly because it is such a physically visceral experience. I like extreme metal in general for this reason. It provides me with energy, perhaps because it does not speak so much to my mind as it speaks to my body and depending on the band, also to my heart. Reconnect with what's truly important?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Well, on a more serious note, I do enjoy death metal exactly because it is such a physically visceral experience. I like extreme metal in general for this reason. It provides me with energy, perhaps because it does not speak so much to my mind as it speaks to my body and depending on the band, also to my heart. Reconnect with what's truly important?
    i struggle to get anywhere without more harmony, without more tonality. the greyscale becomes fatiguing. i did have a recent experience where it made more sense to me than it ever had before. this kind of maximum assertion, control, bodily trial, isolation, anger, competing just to survive, everything defined by the physical changes of struggle on the body and the breath, etc.

    to me it skips the layered, holistic emotional coloring aspects of music in order to isolate the pure physicality when imagining each part of experience or emotion fighting for survival. it skips the much of the humanistic space of music and goes for something more machinated, a kind of intense blocking out of the holistic, social, shareable aspects of experience. skips the complex resonances.

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    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i struggle to get anywhere without more harmony, without more tonality. the greyscale becomes fatiguing. i did have a recent experience where it made more sense to me than it ever had before. this kind of maximum assertion, control, bodily trial, isolation, anger, competing just to survive, everything defined by the physical changes of struggle on the body and the breath, etc.

    to me it skips the layered, holistic emotional coloring aspects of music in order to isolate the pure physicality when imagining each part of experience or emotion fighting for survival. it skips the much of the humanistic space of music and goes for something more machinated, a kind of intense blocking out of the holistic, social, shareable aspects of experience. skips the complex resonances.
    Well, I prefer the melodic subgenre so it's less focus on visceral brutality as it is on creating beautiful melodies in my opinion. Some examples if you aren't familiar:






    Ad nauseam.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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