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  1. #31
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have this exact same process with sadness/despair: finding its root cause and killing it.
    Not to tag @fidelia twice in a post – but that’s something else that she and I were talking about. Somehow, even though we’re both 1w2, her attitude towards anger is a lot like my attitude towards sadness: “I hate this, make it go away”. Still not sure how that works.
    That seems weird to me.

    Let's say I'm going along and I encounter X. X is bad. X makes me extremely angry. Pretty much my entire focus will be on fixing X. When X is fixed, the anger is relieved. I really don't think about the anger in the abstract. I guess you could say it's sort of like hunger; feeling hungry doesn't make me think about hunger, it makes me think about food.

    Am I making any sense?
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  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hmm, I don't know. I feel kind of like sadness serves that purpose for me. It's not wallowing or wringing my hands, but usually an indicator that something is awry and needs looking at. Despair happens seldom, but on the few occasions that I've felt it, it's meant that I have to acknowledge the futility of doing things the same way I have because I cannot change things outside of my realm of control. Either has served a good purpose for me, perhaps as you folks have found anger does.

    Anger on the other hand is something that I even occasionally enjoy, but it doesn't propel me onwards. It just clogs up the system. I relate to the righteous anger than 21% mentioned, which does have a motivating element to it. I've gone a few rounds with my brother over decisions he and his wife have made which would have a terrible impact on their kids or put them in real danger. This isn't a matter of wanting to put my oar in, but rather something that would have been wrong not to intervene in and which has served to protect them as some junctures in their lives.

    The other kind usually is borne out of extreme hurt or frustration that is clearly wrong and if I do give in to it, I just feel embarrassed of a poorly thought out emotional display that wasn't objective or productive (I guess other than letting the other person know just how deeply my frustration extended). It isn't enjoyable because unexpressed, there is no productive way to give vent to it or change the situation (usually I've already done everything within my locus of control to "fix" things by then and it hasn't worked) or else expressed, it creates a bigger mess for me to clean up before I can decide what to do about the situation in the long term. I feel like it gets in the way of people being willing to listen to my cause and it has a debilitating rather than fueling effect on me if I don't express it.

    I remember a few instances of feeling extreme anger when I lived up north. Mostly they were a build up of frustration culminating in one incident that was the tipping point. It scared me to realize that I could actually feel a kind of exhilaration at imagining slowly choking the life out of a small child! Another time I felt a weird kind of Incredible Hulkishness rising within me after being charged the wrong amount for avocados in the grocery store and then having to go through all kind of red tape to fix it. Another time it was over doing an incredible job of pulling off hosting 600 people at our school, singlehandedly, with only the help of my boyfriend. I was doing everything from janitor work to meals to teaching all day in the workshop to transporting people etc and then having unreasonable extra and unreasonable requests being made during it by the guy who should have been involved in making the thing happen and who wasn't available whenever I phoned for advice (Could we have completely separate meals and transpo for the instructors? What about a wine and cheese - in a place that doesn't sell anything else than beer and only cheddar cheese and on short notice etc!). Mostly it was due to lack of support in circumstances where I was extended to the very outer limits and it was reasonable to expect it. In the grocery store case, it was being part of a community where you couldn't even complain about the customer service without it affecting every other area of your existence because everyone was inter-related and I had been dealing with incompetent and difficult people at every turn - hospital, school, grocery store etc. There was no way to fix any of those situations if I wanted to stay there, and yet they were clearly wrong and no one cared and I couldn't manipulate around them to get my stuff done.

    Sometimes if I'm upset enough, I have cried when I'm angry (particularly if it comes out of hurt) and then I just feel stupid and discredited afterwards and the problem still has not been adequately addressed so that it doesn't bubble up again. I think the difference for me is that sadness is something that lies within the locus of my control. It seems to me to be more malleable. Anger isn't, as I rarely get angry until I've exhausted every option and yet still have enough invested I don't want to just let it go.
    Last edited by fidelia; 10-31-2012 at 11:38 AM.

  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Anger and sadness come first from our thoughts, and our thoughts are unconsciously limned by metaphor.

    However, moved by our unconscious metaphors, we naturally think anger and sadness are things - we give them a literal interpretation, and then we seek to manipulate them literally.

    This is very familiar - for many of us give the Bible or the Koran a literal interpretation and seek to manipulate our way into Heaven.

    And how close to home it is - for many of us give mbti a literal interpretation and then we seek to manipulate our respective personalities.

    But of course the literal interpretation is only for the literate. And as print becomes the content of the internet, we will once again return to the age-old metaphoricial interpretation.

  4. #34
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    More replies!

    @Kasper: I relate to 100% of what you posted and I cannot thank you enough for it.

    @entropie: Thank you for your most recent post on this thread. I think your suggestions are doable, generally speaking. Sometimes, in the bigger things in life, I think I'm drawn to things that make me angry, in the hopes that I can eliminate or minimize them. But with the rest of life's stressors, you make an excellent case.
    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I would suggest running to release that anger. Sometimes it is good motivating "fuel" to make the change needed to erase the anger.
    I keep meaning to run more.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I do not care for anger in myself or others because it seems the most irrational of all emotions. It makes people say crazy hurtful things that are partly true, so they hurt people to the core, but then when the emotion simmers down, everyone says sorry and acts like nothing happened, but it did. The ideas expressed in anger show what people think, so sorry doesn't erase it. Anger justifies all sorts of distorted self-perceptions. I admire people who remain rational during anger and I try to do the same, although I'm not naturally prone to anger as much as anxiety. I don't have that sort of personal intensity and energy required for much anger.
    99% of the time I agree with the negative things you've said about anger, which is part of why there's hate in my love/hate relationship with it, but recently I've found the bolded to be an unexpected blessing. A now-former friend (ENFJ) got incredibly angry with me, earlier this week, and told me that I was a terrible friend and "not a socially functioning human being". In other words, she did not think highly of me at all. But the blessing in that was: I'd rather not be friends with someone who thinks of me that way. Despite how her comment hurt me at the time (and how occasionally it still does hurt me), it's so much better than if she had held that comment in and maintained a heavily skewed and dishonest friendship with me. (Summary: for once, the NFJ doorslam was appreciated! )

    A question I have regarding your post: You say that anger is the least rational of emotions? What makes the others more rational? Just that you find that you can stay in a more rational place while you're experiencing them? I wonder, then, if the rationality of particular emotions depends on who's experiencing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    EJCC,

    I relate to a great deal of what it is you said - maybe it's because I'm a One wing?

    Like you I have this churning....feeling....inside me most of the day. I wouldn't necessarily call it aggression (even if it feels similar) so much as I think it's more restlessness. It's like a general sense of discontentment, a constant feeling of needing to to move, almost like a shark. I can't sit on my laurels too long before I start to feel like I need to get up and fucking do SOMETHING!

    Most of the time I can channel this energy into something productive: I can use it to motivate myself out of apathy or force myself out of a box that I've managed to work myself into which I gotta say happens a lot more than I care to admit.
    I relate to this a lot. The only times I have trouble with this, are when my anger turns to moping/hopelessness/angst, which motivates me to sit around instead of motivating me to act -- as I described to @21% in an earlier post here.
    Othertimes though it can be difficult to channel it and then it just starts to stew and boil and fester and thats where it can really turn into anger. The worst part is that because I'm quite sure just what it is I'm discontented about, I end up keeping it to myself as I don't know what to do with it, which invariably ends up causing it to contaminate every other aspect of my life in someway.
    That has definitely happened to me before (although usually I'm pretty aware of what I'm angry about, or at least what has more recently made me angry; I may not know all the things that built up, but I'll know the most recent thing). Sometimes -- as with the recent incident with my now-former friend, mentioned above -- I won't even be able to identify it as anger. It'll be sitting inside me, making me uncomfortable, and I'll have no idea what it is!
    (This is probably a T-dom problem, more than anything. )
    I think this is why I find Taoism so appealing: It's stress on harmony and peace and accepting and adapting to things you can't change
    So 9.

    How do you reconcile those aspects of Taoism with the aspects that detach you from things to the point of selfishness/apathy? I ask because those have been my chief complaints with philosophies that emphasize solely personal growth -- e.g. Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism.
    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    That seems weird to me.

    Let's say I'm going along and I encounter X. X is bad. X makes me extremely angry. Pretty much my entire focus will be on fixing X. When X is fixed, the anger is relieved. I really don't think about the anger in the abstract. I guess you could say it's sort of like hunger; feeling hungry doesn't make me think about hunger, it makes me think about food.

    Am I making any sense?
    You are making sense -- and I was probably not making myself clear enough.

    My thought process with sadness and other negative emotions that aren't (variations of) anger: "I have these feelings. I hate having these feelings. I want these feelings to go away. What can I do to make these feelings go away?"

    My thought process with anger: "This thing happened. That makes me extremely angry because X and Y and therefore the thing is unacceptable. What can I do to correct the thing?"

    I wouldn't say that I hate feeling angry. I don't try to fix the things that make me angry, because I want the anger to go away. I try to fix the things because of some other form of justification, like X and Y in the thought process description; examples of a possible X and Y would be "it is unjust and unfair" and "no one else seems to care about fixing it". However, I would say that I hate other negative feelings, e.g. sadness, guilt, hopelessness.

    @fidelia, I will reply to you soon!
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #35
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I relate to this a lot. The only times I have trouble with this, are when my anger turns to moping/hopelessness/angst, which motivates me to sit around instead of motivating me to act -- as I described to @21% in an earlier post here.
    I understand, which is why I don't like to let it stagnate. In my minds eye, whats happening in the situation that you described is my anger turning in on itself which is just self destructive

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That has definitely happened to me before (although usually I'm pretty aware of what I'm angry about, or at least what has more recently made me angry; I may not know all the things that built up, but I'll know the most recent thing). Sometimes -- as with the recent incident with my now-former friend, mentioned above -- I won't even be able to identify it as anger. It'll be sitting inside me, making me uncomfortable, and I'll have no idea what it is!
    (This is probably a T-dom problem, more than anything. )
    Possibly. I feel something similar from time to time. Sometimes I'll know that something is bothering me and I'll think I'll know what it is thats bothering me until I really start to dig deep into the emotion and, like peeling layers off an onion, get to the root cause of my frustration or whats bothering me (which is usually a very simple, terribly mundane reason)

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So 9.
    Yep yep. It's interesting to me how even though I have a one wing, just how similar and just how different Type 1w2/9s and Type 8/9s are to myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    How do you reconcile those aspects of Taoism with the aspects that detach you from things to the point of selfishness/apathy? I ask because those have been my chief complaints with philosophies that emphasize solely personal growth -- e.g. Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism.
    For me its more of a matter of realizing that things are beyond your control and that its pointless to stress over things you can't change (Think the Serenity Prayer). To a Type 1 or Type 8 Te-dom I imagine this sort of thinking is anathema as you guys always want to take charge of your respective destinies (which is a quality, in spite of my Toaist leanings, I think is a very good thing) and the idea of being completely hands off and letting things sort themselves is I'm sure the opposite of your normal mode of thinking
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #36
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    99% of the time I agree with the negative things you've said about anger, which is part of why there's hate in my love/hate relationship with it, but recently I've found the bolded to be an unexpected blessing. A now-former friend (ENFJ) got incredibly angry with me, earlier this week, and told me that I was a terrible friend and "not a socially functioning human being". In other words, she did not think highly of me at all. But the blessing in that was: I'd rather not be friends with someone who thinks of me that way. Despite how her comment hurt me at the time (and how occasionally it still does hurt me), it's so much better than if she had held that comment in and maintained a heavily skewed and dishonest friendship with me. (Summary: for once, the NFJ doorslam was appreciated! )
    Fights are intensely confusing to me. Don't people usually say much worse things than that during a fight? I've had people I've loved my entire life say scathing things to me. I've also had people fight "at me". What I mean by that is they tell me what my feelings and motivations are (typically negative to horrible), and then they tell me how angry that makes them feel. Then I feel confused and attempt to bring things back to a more rational place and the process repeats. In worst case scenarios it ends with me having an anxiety attack. If I'm lucky I can hang up the phone or exit the premises before it hits, but not always. I've actually had some fights recently with someone I love and the last time I let myself feel angry and said what I felt - which didn't attack them, but mostly turned their words and phrases back on them. It ended much better which left me really confused. I'm actually feeling a bit of despair right now from how disorienting that process is for me. I am conflict avoidance and managed to go through a divorce from a 15 year relationship without an argument, so I am extreme to the other end of the spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    A question I have regarding your post: You say that anger is the least rational of emotions? What makes the others more rational? Just that you find that you can stay in a more rational place while you're experiencing them? I wonder, then, if the rationality of particular emotions depends on who's experiencing them.
    It seems the most irrational because it seems to evoke the greatest certitude based on fear and entitlement. Anger tends to narrow the focus, exaggerate reality, and then reach conclusions of stone-hard certitude. Sometimes even if it is correct, it is like a caricature of truth being still unbalanced. Grief can leave people with questioning which can lead to eventually increasing knowledge, although it can also produce tunnel vision and exaggeration.

    I am actually feeling some anger right now because I have had a few people disappoint me, and I am a little afraid they may be capable of manipulating me. I am feeling anger as a defense mechanism against manipulation. I'm also feeling an intensely jaded idealism about life, but hopefully it will pass because I have a lot to be thankful for as well.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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