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  1. #11
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Responding incrementally; will get to everyone at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I have similiar anger management problems, whereas they stem from repressed emotions for me. In time I do not deal with emotions, but archive them rationally as "shit happens" and in time later on they come back and fuel frustrations about why are people so stupid.
    I relate a lot to this.
    I've found in the course of my life that the best and sometimes only solution to deal with frustrations is to minimize contact to people around me and be more concerned with my projects and my family. This tho a way not everybody is cut out for.

    The main problem with anger is that it blinds you for nearly everything which would be reasonable for you right in that moment. And anger for me at least, always has a source. When I myself am balanced, not so much can shake me, then I become quite perfectionistic at leading my environment into a better and more efficient way of dealing with things.
    So how exactly do you redirect your anger? Do you just avoid your stressors, or do you have it both ways-- using this "unreasonable" emotion to drive you towards reasonable solutions?
    So my main sentence in all this would be: "before you can help others, learn to help yourself." Because I have found that an integral stability of your own selve, gives you the strength to convey that to the outside world.
    Agreed.
    Thanks for this.
    Maybe a partner in crime, a friend or a boyfriend, could help you work on that strong emotions and give you a valve to vent it ?
    That would be ideal, I think. Most of my friends are Threes, Twos, Ones and Nines, and they aren't exactly the best for what you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I quite like anger as an emotion. I see emotions as fuel, and expression as something that has value or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Agreed. I use every emotion and I refuse to act on it unless it has been properly placed, but I'll never throw it away.
    Sounds like you Nines are thinking a lot like I did, regarding anger, until recently. Do you both figure that the negative consequences of that anger -- i.e. the frustrations that come with repressing it when it isn't appropriate -- are insignificant compared to its benefits when used correctly?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  2. #12
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I would suggest running to release that anger. Sometimes it is good motivating "fuel" to make the change needed to erase the anger.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #13
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Fellow TypeC members: How much do you relate to this? Is it a problem that you've come to deal with successfully? What can be done to ease this? Can anything morally right take the place of this need that is morally wrong, without repressing it to the point of loving it even more? Do I find an outlet for it? Is that all that needs to be done?
    I relate to the love/hate relationship with anger, feeling the need to explode yet knowing that would be wrong so pulling it back. My anger shows up for different reasons and comes out in different ways, however as a gut type there are relevant shared factors and points that should concern us both.

    One of the key things for gut types is actually noticing when anger is rising, as it is rising, it's a sign something isn't okay and something needs to be done before anger comes out in an over-the-top way. If you are hitting the point where you want to rage then there have been opportunities prior where things could have changed direction, and it is often too late to back track and calm down. In order to click into them earlier self-observation, with an understanding of what happens when you are getting angry, the how/why/what's of it is needed.

    This exert from Palmer may help, her focus is work and relationships:

    A life dedicated to perfection requires heroic effort. You can't help noticing when standards slip and no one else feels guilty. How can they ignore this? Have they no shame? The tension builds. Something has to be done. You start to see details slipping out of order. If others don't notice and you do, then you'll be held responsible. Your conscious goes wild when error is overlooked. "I saw. I knew. I'm guilty". You can't leave it alone. You feel compelled to fix it. You don't recognize the rising signals of anger. The tension feels entirely appropriate. Tension means you're trying hard. You brace for greater effort.

    If focusing on error becomes automatic, self-observation stops. All you know is that you're working desperately hard, that you see loose ends everywhere, and you can't rest until it's finished. The scope of the task enlarges. More details appear. It's late. It's out of control. Your mind flogs you for being tired and helpless. It's maddening that other people don't care. You don't realise how angry you are until you hear the jagged edge in your voice and feel the fury spiking through your body.

    Anger leads to action. You can't hold back that shot of lightning. You know exactly what's wrong, because it's infuriating. Something perfect has been ruined. You can't keep quiet. You're too mad to care about overreacting. Attention locks on the right way to fix what's gone wrong, and anger fuels your conviction.

    Ones grow by knowing what they want instead of what would be right. They grow by relaxing, by letting pleasure in. You have a choice when you can read the natural signals of anger and watch your mind begin to focus on error.

    They can be helped in relationships by people who accept differences of opinions, who soften the one right way to perfection, and who are open to pleasure.

  4. #14
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Anger also often hides other emotions and seems to be used especially by TJs to avoid admitting that they in fact feel sad, hopeless, powerless or afraid and insecure.
    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I am almost never angry and the only time I am it's most likely I am hurt or feel neglected or threatened or something else -- never really 'angry'.

    ...Is this anger covering over other emotions?
    I agree wholeheartedly that there are underlying issues that cause anger, there always would be, however anger for gut types is the underlying emotion in the same way that shame is for heart types and anxiety is for head types. Tbh I'm not really sure if someone who isn't 891 can get what anger is like for a gut type, dunno. Either way, it's not something that will go away by coming to some kind of emotional resolution, it will always be there, waiting, so anger is the issue that needs to be focused on in terms of 'how to deal with it' even more than 'why are you feeling angry right now', because it will come back, hell it will probably never fully leave, just remain quiet for a while before triggered and resurfacing unless/until the triggers can be read and the anger quelled through positive means.

    In childhood, 1s received the message they weren't good enough, or the right thing, when those points are triggered anger will likely rise, 9s received the message they are not important, that they are insignificant, when those points are triggered anger would likely rise for them (they many not notice it though), these are the underlying issue in the same way that a 4 will feel shame when they feel exposed and who they are does not match who they do not think they should be.

  5. #15
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly that there are underlying issues that cause anger, there always would be, however anger for gut types is the underlying emotion in the same way that shame is for heart types and anxiety is for head types. Tbh I'm not really sure if someone who isn't 891 can get what anger is like for a gut type, dunno. Either way, it's not something that will go away by coming to some kind of emotional resolution, it will always be there, waiting, so anger is the issue that needs to be focused on in terms of 'how to deal with it' even more than 'why are you feeling angry right now', because it will come back, hell it will probably never fully leave, just remain quiet for a while before triggered and resurfacing unless/until the triggers can be read and the anger quelled through positive means.

    In childhood, 1s received the message they weren't good enough, or the right thing, when those points are triggered anger will likely rise, 9s received the message they are not important, that they are insignificant, when those points are triggered anger would likely rise for them (they many not notice it though), these are the underlying issue in the same way that a 4 will feel shame when they feel exposed and who they are does not match who they do not think they should be.
    Then as a 4 who suffers greatly from shame, I would say that the only way to handle that shame is to challenge who I think I should be and change expectations and demands into striving and compassion for myself, as well as the understanding that I am only human and to expect and demand to be flawless is to demand I am a god(dess) which is a) unreasonable and b) unbelievably arrogant. Now striving to get closer to that is admirable, but one should never forget that one is only human.

    Similarly, anyone who puts those demands on you especially when you are in fact already giving it your all, is an idiot and a cruel idiot at that.

    And from what you said, I'd wager that 1s can face their anger in exactly the same way.
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  6. #16
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So how exactly do you redirect your anger? Do you just avoid your stressors, or do you have it both ways-- using this "unreasonable" emotion to drive you towards reasonable solutions?
    I've learnt in life that for me anger is something that comes when I am not satisfied myself with a thing. So the next logical question was, why do I always need to be satisfied with things ? My ISFJ work buddy can go about the mistakes and flaws of other workers for days, months and years. He never stops getting angry at people. I am convinced that if he was actually living in a near to perfect world, he'ld still find flaws in others and go on rambling about them. Its like he needs that to feel good or if it is his way to self-reflect himself.

    This is a very far-fetched theory of mine, namely that anger or frustration expressed about people is a way to self-reflect and justify ones own way. Still if that was so, the question remains is: why need I to justify my way before myself ?

    I am still angry nowadays, I was angry at work today cause a coworker that has been my boss but isnt anymore made me do a thing, which was already done, do over. That showed me that she doesnt respect my judgement and confirmed my theory that she wants things to be done her way or the highway. As in she has no flexibility to accept that other people dont do the things exactly like she would, but differently and still have the same output or a learning experience on the way. She doesnt allow failure to happen and therefore she is limiting the learning progress for people.

    I am not so angry about things no more when I understand the root and how it is connected to me, as in why it made me angry. It made me angry cause I want my work mates to accept me and to respect me. Since I work in *no-fantasy-central* tho and since I cant keep up for the high demand of self organisation needed I fail. I even have the opinion that I could do much of their work with lesser organisation and higher efficiency. But nobody does even want to hear that, cause they have been working there for so long they are completly blinded to change.

    I am very angry about this, so anger for me is more like frustration. So I am very frustrated about this. I've been giving it chance after chance but ultimately I know that I myself am so fundamentally different than the rest of my World that I'll be needing to keep searching for my place and for my people. It wont be in that job.

    So what would be the bottom line of this: it would be that you always have to understand how anger is connected to yourself and why something made you angry. And if you see no chance in changing yourself and you know that certain things will always keep getting you angry you need to get rid of them or minimize contact as best as you can.

    I have learnt so far that life is very very unfair, probably the most unfair there is in the world. There are many ways how people try to deal with that, fantasy worlds, religion, bloodsport or politics but we all have the same problem that we need to find ways to deal with the unfairness that is life. Most people think that if they were in charge of things, things would be better. But they forget that for other people its different again and so there will be people who are angry with things with you being in charge.

    If you manage in life to control that anger and to stay cool, life will be your bitch. Cause the hardest thing for people is to stay cool and they tend to make those people their Gods who do stay cool.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #17
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    If anger is such a great problem to you EJCC the advice above is good. However, isnt the issue here that your relationship with your anger is love-hate? You dont just want it gone, because it defines you, it provides you with a driving force. Perhaps a reason to live? This doesnt seem like a trait you should be, on the whole, hostile too. Emotion is the only motivator. Accept it as long as it motivates you to resultantly good action, and hold it back if it threatens a bad result.
    This is insightful and true. It's also what I've been trying to do -- and what I'm slightly dissatisfied by.
    But the question is, whether I should be dissatisfied by it. Everything I mentioned in the OP could be a necessary thing that has to be lived with. It could be that it is no less imperfect than any of my other options.
    That would be tough for me to accept, but if it's necessary, then I will.
    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I am almost never angry and the only time I am it's most likely I am hurt or feel neglected or threatened or something else -- never really 'angry'.

    What you said in the OP is very interesting. I am not familiar with Dexter, but from the little that I've heard he is taking justice into his own hands. I can identify a bit with this kind of 'righteous anger'. When I see something bad on the news I just feel extremely angry and I want to make things right, the bad guys punished and made to repent, the victims healed of the hurt, and the world will be a slightly better place. Sometimes I feel like it is society's fault, and I want to yell "Look what you have done! Why was there no one there to help when one of your members was in pain? How could you let this happen?", and it seems like the world lacks sympathy and maybe if everyone would just reach out a little bit more everything will be so much better. I am not sure if this is what you are talking about. I suspect that my take on it is a bit Fe-flavored, because ultimately I want a metaphorical global group-hug to make all the problems go away.

    That said, there was a period some time ago when I felt depressed and angry. I didn't know what I was angry at. I just felt overworked and completely exhausted and alienated from everything. Maybe I was just angry at my life situation at the moment, and I went on a movie-watching spree where I wanted stressful, violent movies -- very unlike my usual self. I especially wanted movies that dealt with "sticking it to the man" and "grace under fire". I wanted the characters' lives to be horrible, and I wanted them to face unfair situations, and I wanted them to be thrown into dilemmas, but most importantly was I wanted them to take a moral stand against all this. The urge for this kind of message lasted for only about a week, and after a lot of movies I felt purged of this emotion, and it has not returned since.
    Interesting. This rings true with the INFJs in my life. It's a very different anger outlet than the kind that I usually crave. What is it about "grace under fire" that drew you, and calmed you? I ask because those sorts of plotlines don't generally have happy endings, and the titular hero(ine) tends to die for the cause, or at least go through great injustices before (s)he gets what (s)he wants -- and that type of plot tends to make me even angrier, since helplessness to injustice makes me incredibly angry/frustrated and sad endings don't give me much catharsis at all. I'm interested in whether it's enneagram, or MBTI, or none of the above.
    I think as long as you don't completely lose control of yourself and fly into a blind rage when you are angry, it isn't anything to be too worried about. What has always helped me is to let the emotions come to you. Don't repress them. Feel them, and explore what exactly you feel and why. I think you have done quite a bit of exploring already and you are a little concerned when you realize your complex relationship with anger. I'd say keep exploring. Like what @Amargith said. Is this anger covering over other emotions? Are you afraid you would lose your moral convictions without it? What about it that you like? What about it that bothers you? And how can you express it in a positive way?
    To quickly answer all these questions:
    1) Yes.
    2) That's generally not a fear of mine. A part of me, deep down, believes that I can maintain my moral convictions and detach myself from people's failures enough that my morals and theirs can coexist. (I've improved immensely on this in recent years, but I think a consequence of it is that I'm much harder on myself; I can't just go around blaming other people now.)
    3) I like the power I get from it. Repression of anger means powerlessness; it means that whatever is making you angry will continue to make you angry, and you can't fight back. Anger, well-channeled, means never being a victim.
    4) What bothers me about it is the lack of control I seem to have over it. (See below.) I blurt things out, I offend people.I break social rules by accident. Sometimes I scare people. I don't want to be the scary, "crazy" one. In a perfect world, I'd be the one who befriends the more emotional people and acts as their grounding force. I'm uncomfortable with the opposite role; it's completely contrary to what I try to embody.
    5) Doing what needs to be done, with power and fearlessness.

    Although @Kasper was right when he said that non-Gut types can only understand so much of what anger is like for us, you are right about the bolded. The everyday things that anger me -- the reasons why I may be angry all the time -- are generally things outside my control, things that are someone else's fault. That anger is a little more shallow and thus a whole lot easier to wield, in situations where wielding anger skillfully is advantageous. Anger at others is the anger that you can dub "righteous anger" and get a lot of satisfaction from, as in the OP. However, the anger that I don't enjoy at all, begins as anger at a situation, and then is directed at myself. I am the object of most of my deeper anger. In my darkest moments, my rage at myself becomes hopelessness; I am broken and imperfect and will never have any worth.

    Describing it like that implies that it is the basis for all of my anger, and I don't think it is. But there are often times when I try to use anger to my advantage, but the anger turns itself into sadness instead, taking an energy-creating emotion and turning it into an energy-draining one. Example: academic failures. I'll try to use anger at a poor grade to do better in the class, but I'll despair instead, beating myself up about the grade and (temporarily) giving up on the possibility of grade improvement.

    This could be another reason why I want to let my anger out in a righteous way: It's a lot better, and more constructive, than the alternative, and it doesn't seem that I'm mature enough at the moment to find something new and even better. Either that, or I just need to be shown; what's the quote about those who see, those who see when they're shown, and those who don't see?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  8. #18
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    This dilemma is always felt in hindsight and seems to be a rare form of the 4-ish longing for the past. Longing for the past creates a disconnect between my concept of my current identity and my past identity, which results in a compulsive re-creation of my idealized self. Being unwilling to see myself as an unchanging person seems to underscore the entire process of trying to embody a round peg in a square whole, so to speak.
    I relate to this to a degree that surprises me. I wonder if it's how I reassure myself that I'm doing everything I can to achieve internal perfection; "See, I'm a better human being than I was last year or a few years ago! I'm changing for the better!!"

    Once, I decided to view myself as, more or less, nothing at all ( I suppose "literally insignificant" is a more apt description), and suddenly even simple tasks seemed to immediately reward me with a feeling of satisfaction. Maybe if you view the world as a blank slate, you would no longer feel guilt for changing it according to your standards?
    Maybe. Although this may be the sort of philosophical change that would have to be encountered within -- if that makes any sense. Something I'd have to stumble upon myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't feel it as broadly as you seem to EJCC, but I do understand the feeling - possibly because as a e4 my security point is e1. I know when I'm forced to confront frustrating circumstances repeatedly, I get filled with the same sort of anger and must struggle to contain it (working in retail incited intense rage in myself ). In such situations I found it impossible to calm down and let it go, and it just continued to build and build inside me. Human beings are so incredibly infuriating. I'm reminded of the Jean Paul Satre quote: "Hell is other people".
    Indeed! And hell is ESPECIALLY other people in retail.
    I don't know what approach would be the healthiest to deal with it - like you say it's hard to know if it's best to repress or find an outlet. I remember hearing about Japanese Salary Men and the interesting ways they release their frustrations (other than karaoke and copious amounts of sake). The have these fully furnished rooms; with chairs, side tables, vases and lamps etc; and you pay a fee and get 15 minutes to go in with a baseball bat and smash the crap out of everything. I imagine it would be cathartic.
    I think I've heard about that, too! Sounds excellent. \m/
    BTW have you ever seen the movie Falling Down?
    No. What's it about?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #19
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I do not care for anger in myself or others because it seems the most irrational of all emotions. It makes people say crazy hurtful things that are partly true, so they hurt people to the core, but then when the emotion simmers down, everyone says sorry and acts like nothing happened, but it did. The ideas expressed in anger show what people think, so sorry doesn't erase it. Anger justifies all sorts of distorted self-perceptions. I admire people who remain rational during anger and I try to do the same, although I'm not naturally prone to anger as much as anxiety. I don't have that sort of personal intensity and energy required for much anger.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #20
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I relate to this, but not to the degree that you say you have it. I don't have many words of wisdom at the moment, except that I do positive affirmations that everything will work out as it should and I don't need to be attached to it. I'll visualize a positive result. Beyond doing what you can to help the situation you are angry about, it's not really worth the energy, and being angry won't help it further. Anger is energy that needs to be channeled, so I guess decide how best to use your energy. I'm certainly not perfect at managing my anger, but I've worked on it a lot.

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