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  1. #1
    brainheart
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    Default 4w5s who are low in self pres

    So I had the epiphany that my self pres totally sucks. I have no idea why it took so long- oh wait I do- I'm an introvert with a heavy five wing which gives me "faux self pres" or some such thing.

    Any other ones of you around? I have a good friend who is also a 4w5 so/sx and we equally suck in our lack of practicality and stick-to-it-tiveness.

    If you exist on here, what have been your experiences with the instincts? Life?

    (I'd like to ask this question of 5w4s as well but will they meander into the heart section?)
    Last edited by brainheart; 10-03-2012 at 12:17 PM.

  2. #2
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    *raises hand*

    Sp-last. I fixed it by dating an sp-dom

    Objectively speaking, I'm a luxury pet. I suck at taking care of myself. Granted, I could do it if I needed to, but honestly...it aint my cup of tea. I'm working hard to change that now, but relatively speaking, I'm learning shit now that I should've figured out as a kid already. It is a bit of a source of guilt and shame for me, tbh, but well, I learned that self-loathing only contributes to my learning zilch when it comes to this. So slowly but surely..I'm improving.

    It is *still* not my favorite thing to do, and it costs me oodles of energy, but I'm starting to somewhat enjoy very small..little things (and then feel ridiculous for being proud of myself for accomplishing something so basic )

    Meanwhile, my sp-dom at home is amused at my efforts. Finds it adorable, and encourages it (though I think his pride will never allow for it to be necessary for me to be good at this shit ). He seems to think my sx-dom instinct makes up for my blatant lack of self-preservation...
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #3
    brainheart
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    Oh wow, @Amargith. I relate so well to what you're saying (although I can tell in your answer that you are an extrovert- is it all the smilies? I never use smilies...). I so know what you mean about learning stuff now you should have learned as a kid. As far as I go, I did all the working for money up til my mid twenties when I decided that I hated to work. I just didn't give a shit. So I've allowed my husband to be my sugar daddy.

    Okay, so time ensues and that's where the social shame kicks in, because look at me, I haven't done shit despite the fact I know I could bring something unique to the world and I know there's so much in me that begs to be expressed. I write for awhile, it feels like the greatest thing in the universe and then the charge fizzles and I need to find the one thing that will complete me. So I move on to music, photography, painting, same pattern emerges... oh wait, music was the right thing, go back to music and then I brood on the tragedy that is my existence, that I can't find the one true thing of which I will never tire.)This also goes for where I live, did go for sig other, but I work very hard at sticking through with that one. It's maddening.

    (At this point it kind of seems like enneagram might be that one thing I've consistently been into which kind of really depresses me. It seems so lame. I want to be an artist, dammit. I just have such a hard time doing vs contemplating. So much damn contemplating.)

    The sx/so (so/sx) combo I think can really mimic adhd (or type seven). I'll be obsessed with something/someone and be convinced I'll never want anything/anyone else and then it's just... done, and I can't but help focus on how screwed up I am. How do people stick to shit? (I should say that when I was in school my competitive nature would kick in and it kept me pretty focused and driven. But without that sort of structure and a rival to upstage I become pretty, uh, undisciplined.)

    But as you say, self loathing gets you nowhere. My husband told me he loves me precisely because I'm so unpredictable, so there's that. I'm extremely open minded. I get excited about a lot of things (and depressed about a lot of things). I never get stuck in a rut or routine, ha ha.

    So... I guess the question is... do you try to focus on developing your self pres or do you just use your secondary instinct to help support your dominant and say f the blindspot or what? How do you find what the right thing is? Do you just become a serial monogamist with your interests/career/what have you?

  4. #4
    ISFJophile zelo1954's Avatar
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    I haven't looked at any of your other posts but this is the sort of problem I would use the MBTI to understand. You seem an obvious INFP, possibly with a strongish T streak, and - I wouldn't betting - with a pretty high P over J. You cannot hope to match your own standards. That comes with the territory. If your talents cannot be realised in the real world of money then find the least objectionable job possible and live for your hobbies and your relationships. Plenty of people do that.

    IMO you don't really self-loathe. At this stage you don't even know who you are. Most of your self-loathing is really (always IMO of course) self-evaluation but with you continually ripping up the check sheet. I'd be surprised if you have just one blindspot and some of them you won't even yet realise.

    If your Fi (talking about MBTI now) is very strong and developed wrt your other functions - especially your auxiliary - then you'll be forever looking for tracks to go down. This is certainly what I've found. Once you find a track nothing will budge you until it (possibly) blows up in your face. At that point you just want to get off the world. Part of your life has disappeared down the plughole. This seems to me to be exactly what you are describing. The key is to find some balance that you can live with using your auxiliary. Would you describe yourself as a depth rather than breadth person? Or do you have the opposite problem but desperately need one of your broad things to become a deep one?

    No answers, but something on paper expressed differently from a similar person can sometimes focus the mind. My key point therefore: You are what you are. Understand what that is. Concentrate on the MBTI. Only then can you begin to work out how to live in this world. INFPs seldom find it easy.
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    Fi (95%); Ti (90%); Ne (75%); Fe (60%); Ni (50%); Si (50%); Te (15%); Se (5%)

    "INFP values but INTP skills" describes me best of all

  5. #5
    brainheart
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    @zelo1954,

    I'm kind of having a hard time understanding what you're saying- it seems really ni-fe to me, honestly, which always feels like a different orientation that I have a hard time translating (and that tends to get me defensive because fe really likes to give advice while fi really hates to take it, especially when it comes from someone who knows nothing about you beyond one thread). But I'll take a poke at it.

    First off, I'll just let you know I'm having a little freak out right now, that's all, and dwelling on my past mistakes to self-dramatize. I'm actually really into painting and I want to stay committed to it. Just the idea of slogging through the spurts when things lose their luster has given me momentary wandering eyes but I'll get over it.

    I'm not looking for advice in this thread, although I can understand why you may have thought so. I just wanted to see what other 4w5s who are sx/so or so/sx have experienced/ do experience. And I was wondering about instinct theory.

    I've delved as deeply as you can into MBTI and found it rather shallow. I much prefer the enneagram. That's pretty much all I have to say about that.

  6. #6
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Oh wow, @Amargith. I relate so well to what you're saying (although I can tell in your answer that you are an extrovert- is it all the smilies? I never use smilies...). I so know what you mean about learning stuff now you should have learned as a kid. As far as I go, I did all the working for money up til my mid twenties when I decided that I hated to work. I just didn't give a shit. So I've allowed my husband to be my sugar daddy.

    Okay, so time ensues and that's where the social shame kicks in, because look at me, I haven't done shit despite the fact I know I could bring something unique to the world and I know there's so much in me that begs to be expressed. I write for awhile, it feels like the greatest thing in the universe and then the charge fizzles and I need to find the one thing that will complete me. So I move on to music, photography, painting, same pattern emerges... oh wait, music was the right thing, go back to music and then I brood on the tragedy that is my existence, that I can't find the one true thing of which I will never tire.)This also goes for where I live, did go for sig other, but I work very hard at sticking through with that one. It's maddening.

    (At this point it kind of seems like enneagram might be that one thing I've consistently been into which kind of really depresses me. It seems so lame. I want to be an artist, dammit. I just have such a hard time doing vs contemplating. So much damn contemplating.)

    The sx/so (so/sx) combo I think can really mimic adhd (or type seven). I'll be obsessed with something/someone and be convinced I'll never want anything/anyone else and then it's just... done, and I can't but help focus on how screwed up I am. How do people stick to shit? (I should say that when I was in school my competitive nature would kick in and it kept me pretty focused and driven. But without that sort of structure and a rival to upstage I become pretty, uh, undisciplined.)

    But as you say, self loathing gets you nowhere. My husband told me he loves me precisely because I'm so unpredictable, so there's that. I'm extremely open minded. I get excited about a lot of things (and depressed about a lot of things). I never get stuck in a rut or routine, ha ha.

    So... I guess the question is... do you try to focus on developing your self pres or do you just use your secondary instinct to help support your dominant and say f the blindspot or what? How do you find what the right thing is? Do you just become a serial monogamist with your interests/career/what have you?
    I walk the edge of extraversion and introversion
    But yes, I like to mimic body language when writing text in order to communicate as efficiently as possible.

    As for your questions, I am still making my way there myself. Right now, I am looking to see if I can put my artistic flair to good use in order to find a career. While I have an interest in many arts, I hold a Masters in Translation, so it makes sense to work with what I know: language. Also, the good people on here have helped me over the years to narrow it down. Two suggestions I got were psychologist and writer. And I learned over the years that not all professions within those sectors are for me. So then it came to me to figure out which ones appealed most to my strengths and interests. Meanwhile Ive had to be patient with myself to overcome years of fear, failure anxiety and belief that ultimately, whatever I had to contribute to the world, didnt matter, and would never be good enough. I'm still working on that, coz it kills the passion and drive to achieve something. Lastly I found that while Im not motivated in the slightest by money or sp, I can wield my sx-so (my curiosity and my interest in having people mirror me and my actions to see where they are at, feeling-wise) to create. It motivates me to be intensely curious and intrigued by beauty in all its forms, and want to see how other people respond to that. Combined with the medium I was trained in (words), this *could* be what Ive been looking for.

    Lastly, I found that I made my relationship my job. Coz that is what I specialised in. Gender-dynamics, finding the right guy who would want to live with me, and how to keep a relationship healthy, what he needs and anticipating as well as being attuned to those needs. That is what I focused on. It helps to think in this way, in order to deal with the shame and guilt, at least for me. I find myself smiling and comforting many people who still struggle with love and infatuations and picking the right partner to be, coz Ive been there, but it is no longer something that frightens me (even if I were to become single now).

    I recognise that the same is true for those who have focused on sp, and careers, who are successful in that area and look at me going: it really aint that hard. It gives me courage that one day Ill succeed in that as well.

    But the main thing I have recently realised which helped me tremendously was: love and careers are incredibly similar but require a different approach.

    What I mean with that is that with love you cannot force things, you need things to just..unfold. Forcing it is bound to make a mess. Whereas with careers, you can do the go-getter thing (which isnt my thing, so thats why its harder for me). However *ALL THE REST* is the same. You scout the area, you learn what you need, what you would like, how you would like it and your experiences along the way teach you how to refine those choices as well as how to handle those situations better. I find myself saying that love is never a failure. Relationships that come with an expirations date are not a failure. Rejection is not a failure. They are all life lessons that you need to extract information out of, to help you find what *truly* makes you happy in life. And therefore their expiration is a blessing. Otherwise you would never have the chance to find the one who truly is compatible with you and fulfils the unique needs you have as a person. And vice versa

    I found that a career is similar in that respect. You need to try out different things to realise that while a career with animal might seem a dream in theory, the reality is that as a secretary at an animal hospital, it will be mostly secretary duties that have to be your thing, if you want to truly enjoy your job. It becomes a quest for the job and the calling in life that suits you, is compatible with you and your strengths, and yes, you can still develop those (just as personal growth is vital in order to find the right relationship and maintain it!), but it is ok to look, and it is ok to *NOT* be suited for jobs without it making you an incompetent person. And it is ok to struggle at work, to be challenged and to have to find a way around problems. You do not have to be perfect, much like being the perfect person for your partner is unnecessary, as he or she will love you, SHOULD love you warts and all. Similarly in a job, your preferences and strengths, and even your flaws will contribute to the right occupation. And while you are looking for that right occupation, it is ok to sleep around and make some money without it having any meaning (just like having a fuck buddy to take care of the loneliness has its purpose), to make sure you can keep looking for that other job that fills your life with meaning.

    So, in short, Im trying to make my sx-so economically exploitable in order to fulfil my sp-needs
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #7
    brainheart
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    @Amargith, thanks for that. It was very wise and insightful. I like especially what you said about how your relationship has been your job. I totally relate to that. I feel like my romantic relationship and that with my kids and closest friends is my job, too. I am very on top of it and not scattered in that respect at all. It's good to think of things like that. It makes me feel better

    I considered in the past being an art therapist but I don't like all the schooling that you have to do to get to that point. Other things I've considered are teaching more unconventional art classes or finding a way to make creating art just more accessible and a regular part of people's lives without it being so structured and rule-bound. I think art is an extraordinary way to connect with your depths and the world around you. I think it's way better than therapy or psychiatrist's visits, personally. So I want to be devoted to it for myself but I guess that social aspect of me also wants to share that with others, shake up the exclusiveness of the art world a bit and how art is traditionally taught. I wish school didn't cost money. I'd probably have five phDs by now.

    Oh and by the way, very cool about being a translator! I love learning languages and the whole idea of translating I find fascinating. I always thought it'd be cool to translate poetry and fiction.

  8. #8
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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  9. #9
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    i'm not sp-last but i still struggle with a lot of self preservation type things. i'm really awful at taking care of myself, i forget to eat a lot and i can live in some pretty gross conditions without really noticing or caring. and like what has already been said in the thread, i definitely prioritize my romantic relationships over pretty much anything. friendships too sometimes.

  10. #10
    brainheart
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    @chana, so then how does your self pres instinct manifest?

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