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[Type 4] I'm a really special 4w5; I don't want to be special.

Tiltyred

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Either you're not a 4, or you're a Social-first 4 (perhaps in a bit of denial ;) ). Even then I would find it a little difficult to believe a 4 would not feel that need at all. I'm a 4w5 so/sp and I feel more of a push/pull effect - I want both to fit in and be special.

But yeah, if you like you could look up some Social 4 descriptions - it's driven by a sense of shame about feeling different.

Can I ask what on earth makes you think you're a 4, if you don't care at all about "uniqueness"? I don't want to sound flippant; it's just a little bizarre. :D That second post in particular is very un-4-like. I mean essentially what you're saying is true, but deep down inside, I can't help but unconsciously resist accepting that fact, if that makes sense. And I think that sort of mindset is central to the 4 enneatype.

I appreciate the feedback. This is hard to write about clearly so I'll just say it: I embody uniqueness to such an extent that I don't have to strive for it. I am unique. I have always always been different and it has always been pointed out to me. When I read the descriptions about 4s wanting to be unique, I can't relate, because it implies that you don't know you are unique, if it's something you long for. I don't long for it because I am it. I can remember not knowing it, but I was very young -- it came to me in feedback pretty quickly to make me realize that I was different. It's not what I would have chosen; it's what happened as a natural course of me unselfconsciously being myself and then seeing how people react to that. I get told it often. It's not always a bad thing, either -- sometimes it's like "I have never met anyone as wonderful as you" in some way. But sometimes it is like "You are SO. WEIRD." My mother said this to me repeatedly last time she visited my house. I am weird even to my own mother. I am not trying to be different. I am just being myself.

It hurts me in the heart a little to be called weird. It feels rejecting. I usually see things about the person who called me weird that I also think are weird, but I keep it to myself. Sometimes I feel like I have to really steel myself just to be able to stand my rightful ground. I wish it didn't have to be that way. It makes me feel isolated and it can make me feel inferior if I let it.
 
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Lady_X

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my own infj mother is totally weird to me too! haha i tell her this frequently.

maybe it doesn't always express itself as a want...maybe it's just more of an awareness...or a way of seeing yourself....a defining characteristic.

because...i've been told i'm weird...i used to all the time. but...i don't see myself that way...and i don't think of it as a way to define myself. it just doesn't resonate with me as being important to who i am....possibly because i'm not that weird...or...possibly because i'm not a 4 and it's not something i pay attention to.
 

the state i am in

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4w5s are emotional skeptics. it's more of a feeling of fakeness that permeates everything. almost everyone else seems to agree on the value of things within rather narrow ranges, especially aesthetically, and these beliefs feel very hollow to 4s, who have to struggle for most of their lives continually trying on new beliefs and coming to terms with their lack of a definitively anchored self. this is especially acute in those 4s who have not stabilized their own adolescent coping strategies, that of being consumed by the desires and valuations of the other (via e2 projection), and who have not been able to balance self-other in distinct and separate ways, who can't listen to both sides fully, and who haven't developed the ability to give reasons (e1 integration point) and provide equanimity (rather than simply perceived originality and uniqueness discursively) in the face of real, sincere, not so demonizable others (both internally and externally).

you can see why the point between 4 and 5 can be so nihilistic. to truly face the emotional complexity of existence, to try to bring equanimity to life as the highest form of compassion to ALL beings (because you are willing to truly identify with both them and yourself distinctly yet at the same time and feel the cleaving force that emerges, pulling you apart), without allowing one's own fears and/or those of others to overtake you amidst real threat and uncertainty.
 

zelo1954

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It hurts me in the heart a little to be called weird. It feels rejecting

It is understandable to feel it as rejecting. 'Weird', to you, is presumably a clear pejorative term for 'different'. The people calling you weird however may not see it that way and therefore would have no idea you were offended. You do well not to fight back in kind. Me? I would regard it as a compliment even though I know it was not intended that way if said by an acquaintance. If said by someone I respected I *could* be devastated and my Ti would have some serious damage control to take care of.
 

Lady_X

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^^ oh yeah right damn...i never mean that as an insult.

you reminded me tho that my type 4 bf also doesn't like to be called that...i don't get it. he is weird. why's it matter to say it?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I really want to be unique, and in that particular way, I am completely conventional.

I have figured this part out - the more alone we feel, the more connected we actually are to humanity. Although, at this point in my life I am not lonely, and it feels pretty funny.
 

Southern Kross

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I appreciate the feedback. This is hard to write about clearly so I'll just say it: I embody uniqueness to such an extent that I don't have to strive for it. I am unique. I have always always been different and it has always been pointed out to me. When I read the descriptions about 4s wanting to be unique, I can't relate, because it implies that you don't know you are unique, if it's something you long for. I don't long for it because I am it. I can remember not knowing it, but I was very young -- it came to me in feedback pretty quickly to make me realize that I was different. It's not what I would have chosen; it's what happened as a natural course of me unselfconsciously being myself and then seeing how people react to that. I get told it often. It's not always a bad thing, either -- sometimes it's like "I have never met anyone as wonderful as you" in some way. But sometimes it is like "You are SO. WEIRD." My mother said this to me repeatedly last time she visited my house. I am weird even to my own mother. I am not trying to be different. I am just being myself.

It hurts me in the heart a little to be called weird. It feels rejecting. I usually see things about the person who called me weird that I also think are weird, but I keep it to myself. Sometimes I feel like I have to really steel myself just to be able to stand my rightful ground. I wish it didn't have to be that way. It makes me feel isolated and it can make me feel inferior if I let it.
Interesting. A lot of what you say is similar to my own experience. I hate being weird and being made to feel self-conscious too. But to be perfectly honest, my weirdness is something I also take pride in (yes, I know how pathetic that sounds :D ).

The thing is with 4s, it's not just that they are "unique", as if it's just a matter-of-fact truth they have to get used to; they want to be "unique" too. They (secretly) relish their difference, even if it's the negative kind. So you see, it's not just a personal quality that is thrust upon them, to some degree it's also a pursuit. Deep down, all 4s fear being normal.

If this isn't something you relate to then perhaps you aren't a 4 - that is, unless you are really suppressing a underlying desire to be special, and aren't conscious of it. But then this also wouldn't be very 4-like, because we tend to be so concious of, and relatively honest with, our feelings. :thinking: Your sense of difference suggests 4-ness is a part of you, but maybe it isn't your primary type.

Do you feel innately "defective"? By that I mean: do you believe that people think you're weird, not just because they fail to understand you, but ultimately because there is something wrong with you underneath?

You might just have a really strong 5 wing, or may even be 5 instead. It’s more a 5 thing to actually feel like an alien, like there’s an ‘uniqueness’ (or a feeling of being different) that’s already there and there’s even a preoccupation of compensating for it rather than striving for it.

At any rate, I totally relate to the quoted text above. Sometimes too I wonder if being least so variant exacerbates it, like my underlying drive to fit into a bigger group is so atrophied that- while I don't mind the immediate consequences- a long term consequence (I think) is generally feeling even more like a fish out of water than I already do.
Actually, now that you say that, she could be a 5w4. After all the type is known as the iconoclast, and this could explain the sense of feeling different and not understood but still being happy and secure in who you are. The way she talks about uniqueness also sounds like the sort of thing my 5w4 friend would say.

Could also be some Fe involved here as well, wanting said uniqueness to be accepted by the group. I already feel somehow outside of the circle, but I desire to have the unusual traits and interests embraced by the group. But at the same time, I recognize that everyone is unique in their own way, so it isn't just me.
Yes, that did cross my mind too.

And I still think the Social instinct might be contributing on top of all this.

my infp bf is a type 4 so first and i don't think he wants to be unique. same push/pull thing there. like being hyper aware of where he is in relation to other people. feeling he doesn't measure up in this way or that.

i don't get it...i tell him why do do you care?? if you valued such n such you'd likely be such n such way...so...you don't really want to be that way...it's a whole weird twisty mindfuck thing that seems ridiculously frustrating to be concerned about.
Oh, don't try to rationalise it my friend. I know it's totally ridiculous but it can't be helped. All I can tell you is that it feels like failure to not be special in some way. It's like being told when you're young that you have great promise, that will be something extraordinary, and then you end up working at McDonalds - except we told ourselves that. :D
 

Tiltyred

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Do you feel innately "defective"? By that I mean: do you believe that people think you're weird, not just because they fail to understand you, but ultimately because there is something wrong with you underneath?

Yes.
 

prplchknz

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This irks me no end, this emphasis on wanting to be unique, different, and special. I don't want that. I would like to fit in! Other people tell me I am unique, different and special. Or, as they say on the playground, WEIRD. Any other 4s like this, or I am just unique in this ... oh wait a minute ... oh damn, srsly? ... reality check: am I unique because I don't want to be unique? bwahaha, what a Special Snowflake, quel rich irony.

No, seriously. Anyone?

you sound like me, perhaps you're actually a 9. I thought i was a 4w5 for the longest time, than i realized it didn't fit me at all. I never wanted to be different, but people call me unique and weird. I like fitting in, even though I rarely do. I'm 89% sure i'm a 9w1 sx/sp/so
 

Tiltyred

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I don't lead with 9, but it's definitely part of my tri-type.
 

Southern Kross

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Hmmm. And it's not a temporary feeling that's gotten worse (you haven't been feeling down or been having a rough time recently)? You've felt it your whole life that you're not just different, but missing something fundamental others have?

If you're the latter, then maybe I was wrong. What about other 4 qualities? Do you identify with the rest of them or are some of them a bit hazy too:

- strive for authenticity (especially in relation to a perceived lack in others)
- pretentious and arrogant at times, yet insecure at others
- deeply introspective, self-absorbed and highly self-aware. You feel like you're not only living your life but watching yourself live it simultaneously.
- regularly get lost in your own feelings and enjoy exploring your own dark side without fear
- drawn to aesthetics
- cultivate a sense of identity based on what emotionally resonates with you
- have a personal ideal you attempt to live up to, but ultimately fail to
- have a melancholy streak
- conceal inner feelings out of fear of being judged
- want to be "rescued" by a lover and soul-mate
- generally empathic
- moody and temperamental
- feel alone and misunderstood
- generally socially inept
- a bit of a drama queen - like to imagine the world is more exciting and dramatic than it really is
- sensitive
- expressive and yet restrained

Writing all these down just makes me realise how confusing this is could be for INFXs because a lot of this crosses over (or is at least associated with INFXs). Maybe that's what happened with you [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION].
 

Tiltyred

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All those things, yes 100 percent yes. Yes without question.

Edited to add: I also have zero question about my stack.

sp/sx
"The sanctuary of home is of paramount concern, and this type takes particular delight in decorating their spaces to reflect their cherished sense of taste and depth. Depth and discrimination characterize this stacking.

Motivation: to live in a secure, comfortable environment where they can pursue their private interests in depth."
 

Southern Kross

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OK. So what about the Social Four descriptions (note, take aspects of these descriptions with a grain of salt - I'm a Social 4 and I don't fit all these 100%):

Social Fours: The Outsider (Ichazo's "Social Shame")
Social Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in the social realm; thus, they are people who deeply want to belong, to be a part of an "in crowd" with a glamorous lifestyle, but who often fear that they are not up to it. Social Fours tend to be more extroverted than Fours of the other two instincts and can resemble Twos or Sevens. Social Fours can be quite funny, using droll, ironic humor to make a point or simply to stimulate conversation. They enjoy expressing their individuality and sense of style in a more public way, although they also attempt to conceal the extent of their feelings of social inadequacy or shame. Social Fours may work hard to develop a public persona through which they can communicate the depths of their feelings, but this persona is usually more glamorous and free than they actually feel. Social Fours are acutely aware of the artifice of their persona, but they use it nonetheless as a way of finding some sense of belonging and involvement in the world. When they are more troubled, Social Fours fear social humiliation to such a degree that they may retreat from much social contact, becoming isolated and reclusive. They may also develop a personal style cultivated to show the world how wounded and different they feel.

Type 4: Shame/counter-shame

In the social domain you easily can feel shame for not measuring up or being a “misfit.” You feel that your protective cover is removed and that your deficiencies or shortcomings will be exposed publicly. You mitigate your envy through shame. You want to hide your defects and deficiencies, keep your fatal flaws from being detected and avoid disgrace. Your shame also helps you feel or keep a connection to others: “They’ll notice me and my deficiencies, and I’ll matter.” This makes you feel special in the eyes of others. Shame also motivates you to do better – create an elegant image, produce pride of elitism, look unique and special, in short to develop counter-shame and a sense of honor for your integrity and what you do for the group. You may become an emotional truth-teller in the group. At your worst, shame can lead to retraction into self-absorption, depression or despair.

Social Fours: "Shame"
Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

- I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
- I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
- I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
- I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
- I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
- I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
- Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
- I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.

Critics: Discriminating evaluators of art & ideas who are sensitive to social standards & thus conflicted about expressing their opinions outright

Critical Commentator (shame/honor): Social acceptance or recognition brings honor & meaning; not belonging brings shame. The tension between needing to be socially correct & personally authentic > an aura of reserve. Need to “speak their truth”—are often the emotional truth-tellers in a group. But critical like 1s; must learn not to pressure themselves too much to be authentic & also not to be too critical or demand too much emotional intensity.
 

prplchknz

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Hmmm. And it's not a temporary feeling that's gotten worse (you haven't been feeling down or been having a rough time recently)? You've felt it your whole life that you're not just different, but missing something fundamental others have?

If you're the latter, then maybe I was wrong. What about other 4 qualities? Do you identify with the rest of them or are some of them a bit hazy too:

- strive for authenticity (especially in relation to a perceived lack in others)no
- pretentious and arrogant at times, yet insecure at othersno, mostly just insecure
- deeply introspective, self-absorbed and highly self-aware. You feel like you're not only living your life but watching yourself live it simultaneously.only in my dreams
- regularly get lost in your own feelings and enjoy exploring your own dark side without fearyes
- drawn to aestheticsno
- cultivate a sense of identity based on what emotionally resonates with youno
- have a personal ideal you attempt to live up to, but ultimately fail tono
- have a melancholy streak yes
- conceal inner feelings out of fear of being judgedmost of the time
- want to be "rescued" by a lover and soul-mate use to
- generally empathicbasically
- moody and temperamentalyup
- feel alone and misunderstoodnot all the time, it's more of i think people hide their true idenity which makes me feel this way, when in reality 99% of the population is like me, and they understand me more than i give them credit for
- generally socially ineptyes
- a bit of a drama queen - like to imagine the world is more exciting and dramatic than it really isthat's bullcrap, the world is exiciting you just have to look at it through the right lenses
- sensitiveyeah
- expressive and yet restrainedjust restrained

Writing all these down just makes me realise how confusing this is could be for INFXs because a lot of this crosses over (or is at least associated with INFXs). Maybe that's what happened with you [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION].

i answered in bold
 
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Southern Kross

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i answered in bold
Yeah, I don't think you're a 4 then. If you were a bit iffy on a few of those (even I am at times) it would be fine, but there's too many differences.
 

Reverie

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You might just have a really strong 5 wing, or may even be 5 instead. It’s more a 5 thing to actually feel like an alien, like there’s an ‘uniqueness’ (or a feeling of being different) that’s already there and there’s even a preoccupation of compensating for it rather than striving for it.
I think this is just general "fourness". I think that with a three wing you craft a compelling dramatized image of this innate "weirdness" and relate to the world with your inner feeling displayed putting the crafted image out there. Some say fours with 3 wing are more likely to wear dramatic costumes etc. It's your artistic representation of an inner state and belief, but with an intent to engage. The projection is innately flawed as it cannot encompass the "real you" but it's effective. I think the "in your face" aspect of your projection varies with the instinctual variant.

Could also be some Fe involved here as well, wanting said uniqueness to be accepted by the group. I already feel somehow outside of the circle, but I desire to have the unusual traits and interests embraced by the group. But at the same time, I recognize that everyone is unique in their own way, so it isn't just me.

Maybe it is a strong 5-wing....
Again...With having a kind of a need for dramatic display but having my INFJ Fe not wanting conflict with external world, for me, it was resolved by being a part of a subculture where it was acceptable to express yourself in an outlandish way, which means you are also around a great bunch of people who have made unusual lifestyle choices and appear "weird", so you don't look out of place. Yet you are able to be quite out there at the same time. The "artist/musician/ professional eccentric" identity gives you quite a lot of social leeway. Of course a hardcore four will still secretly think they are the most misunderstood and peculiar of the bunch and can never truly fit in, even among the misfits. ;)

I appreciate the feedback. This is hard to write about clearly so I'll just say it: I embody uniqueness to such an extent that I don't have to strive for it. I am unique. I have always always been different and it has always been pointed out to me. When I read the descriptions about 4s wanting to be unique, I can't relate, because it implies that you don't know you are unique, if it's something you long for. I don't long for it because I am it. I can remember not knowing it, but I was very young -- it came to me in feedback pretty quickly to make me realize that I was different. It's not what I would have chosen; it's what happened as a natural course of me unselfconsciously being myself and then seeing how people react to that.

EDIT: This segment meant to serve as an example of how I felt as a child. Not how I feel or view myself today.

Well how the drama developed in my own psyche I would say I felt like an odd duck. I was also considered odd. I had odd interests. I stood out.
I at the time actually saw people who accenuated their difference as ornamentation as fake where I was the real deal (ironically as I did the same later on) . "I am unique."
I have spent the better part of my life seeing myself as inherently different from others, thus not being in any conceivable way able to fit in, ergo I am unique in my own right, unlike other people who are not. But at the same time I'm terrified of being wrong and delusional. Just another muggle thinking too highly of themselves. Being fake. A failure. A defective specimen. That my internal landscapes are just the ramblings of a degenerate.
But I'd rather romanticize being a degenerate and a lunatic (in the Rimbaudian sense...)because if that's taken away and I am not actually unique in anyway, but plain as bread...what then? It would go against everything. The very way I look at the world.

The way I see it I have all my life genuinely felt I was not like others, that there was something inherently different within me. ...And, maybe this is the three wing, a kind of an ugly duckling. One day I'll let my swan out for everyone to see. Of course. In my head. But being 4w3 I did actually do that in my small way. Only to find out people liked my dramatization and began to see me as "special", but that was the moment I knew I wasn't. It was just make believe. A dream. I was terribly dissapointed. No reason to be. But I was because of my self deception. It had been for nothing.

my own infj mother is totally weird to me too! haha i tell her this frequently.

maybe it doesn't always express itself as a want...maybe it's just more of an awareness...or a way of seeing yourself....a defining characteristic.

because...i've been told i'm weird...i used to all the time. but...i don't see myself that way...and i don't think of it as a way to define myself. it just doesn't resonate with me as being important to who i am....possibly because i'm not that weird...or...possibly because i'm not a 4 and it's not something i pay attention to.
This. Wether one is or is not weird is not the issue. Being invested in the idea of being different is
Interesting. A lot of what you say is similar to my own experience. I hate being weird and being made to feel self-conscious too. But to be perfectly honest, my weirdness is something I also take pride in (yes, I know how pathetic that sounds :D ).

The thing is with 4s, it's not just that they are "unique", as if it's just a matter-of-fact truth they have to get used to; they want to be "unique" too. They (secretly) relish their difference, even if it's the negative kind. So you see, it's not just a personal quality that is thrust upon them, to some degree it's also a pursuit. Deep down, all 4s fear being normal.
I think this is so true. It was the most devastating time for me when I had to consider the possibility that my own perceived inherent difference might be bullshit. I genuinely bought into it wholeheartedly. I have a friend who is an ardent buddhist and a four. For my friend there was a watershed moment when in their practice they came to a kind of a realization that they are not different from all the "muggles" who run around worried about their mortgages and which insurance to get. The way they said it played out was getting this concrete experience of BEING all those guys and that they'd been spending all this time looking for something special and finding the most obvious fact. Like discovering your big toe after you'd been looking for it all your life and secretly thinking you were a special individual on a mystical quest...a kind of a chosen one. ...but everyone has a big toe. ;)
For me I guess it was the painful process of finding out that I am not actually different. ...Well that's not entirely true... I am different. and here's the snowflake moment. Yes, everybody is. Ironically I am now after several years of trying to bring out my innate difference considered "different". The only difference is I chose to dramatize and display my deep feeling of being different in an aesthetic way. I'm just not buying into my difference anymore. When I get upset I still just want to think I'm not being able to handle certain situations because I am inherently different from humanity and I get an urge to start mythologizing it but I'm really really trying not to. Because I'm happier not doing that and just being human. Finally. I think that's the only way I can really genuinely feel dignified, though the fairydust is alluring.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I think this is just general "fourness". I think that with a three wing you craft a compelling dramatized image of this innate "weirdness" and relate to the world with your inner feeling displayed putting the crafted image out there. Some say fours with 3 wing are more likely to wear dramatic costumes etc. It's your artistic representation of an inner state and belief, but with an intent to engage. The projection is innately flawed as it cannot encompass the "real you" but it's effective. I think the "in your face" aspect of your projection varies with the instinctual variant.

Huh? (You mean what I described sounded like general “fourness”?)

The point I was trying to make is that fives already feel ‘different’ at the core. We feel like we need to be fully prepared going into situations or we won’t be able to keep up or compete with others. That’s how it started anyway- hoarding preparedness/understanding/knowledge because underneath it all it felt like if we didn’t then we’d be screwed- whereas most people (supposedly, I wouldn’t know) are able to trust that they’ll figure things out as they go. I think this tendency in 5s to hoard understanding/knowledge may often inevitably lead to arrogance, but initially it’s born from a sense of being different and less capable than most people. There’s a preoccupation with independence, not authenticity. I think maybe for 4s (and probably more 4w5) it’s more like a preoccupation with making sure the ‘alien-ness’ doesn’t get drowned out by others (?), but more on the 5w4 side it’s like a preoccupation with making sure we don’t get drowned out by others because of the ‘alien-ness’. E5s aren’t concerned the uniqueness/authenticity will get drowned out, the basic fear is more that we’ll get drowned out for having this 'unique-ness' in the first place.
 

Reverie

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Huh? (You mean what I described sounded like general “fourness”?)
Yes... that's what I meant. :blush:
The point I was trying to make is that fives already feel ‘different’ at the core. We feel like we need to be fully prepared going into situations or we won’t be able to keep up or compete with others. That’s how it started anyway- hoarding preparedness/understanding/knowledge because underneath it all it felt like if we didn’t then we’d be screwed- whereas most people (supposedly, I wouldn’t know) are able to trust that they’ll figure things out as they go. I think this tendency in 5s to hoard understanding/knowledge may often inevitably lead to arrogance, but initially it’s born from a sense of being different and less capable than most people. There’s a preoccupation with independence, not authenticity. I think maybe for 4s (and probably more 4w5) it’s more like a preoccupation with making sure the ‘alien-ness’ doesn’t get drowned out by others (?), but more on the 5w4 side it’s like a preoccupation with making sure we don’t get drowned out by others because of the ‘alien-ness’. E5s aren’t concerned the uniqueness/authenticity will get drowned out, the basic fear is more that we’ll get drowned out for having this 'unique-ness' in the first place.
Thank you for clearing that up. I should have spent some time digesting your first post. I get what you mean now. I find it so hard to maybe separate the different elements from one another as I have 5 in my tritype, which made me think I was a 4w5 at first...so maybe I'm not quite clear on what goes where, so to speak. What is the 4 and what is the 3, then add five and most likely 8 there too, throw in some Ni and Fe and presto... :shock:
Back to the old drawing board...marvin-the-martian-film.jpg
 
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