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  1. #31
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yes.
    Hmmm. And it's not a temporary feeling that's gotten worse (you haven't been feeling down or been having a rough time recently)? You've felt it your whole life that you're not just different, but missing something fundamental others have?

    If you're the latter, then maybe I was wrong. What about other 4 qualities? Do you identify with the rest of them or are some of them a bit hazy too:

    - strive for authenticity (especially in relation to a perceived lack in others)
    - pretentious and arrogant at times, yet insecure at others
    - deeply introspective, self-absorbed and highly self-aware. You feel like you're not only living your life but watching yourself live it simultaneously.
    - regularly get lost in your own feelings and enjoy exploring your own dark side without fear
    - drawn to aesthetics
    - cultivate a sense of identity based on what emotionally resonates with you
    - have a personal ideal you attempt to live up to, but ultimately fail to
    - have a melancholy streak
    - conceal inner feelings out of fear of being judged
    - want to be "rescued" by a lover and soul-mate
    - generally empathic
    - moody and temperamental
    - feel alone and misunderstood
    - generally socially inept
    - a bit of a drama queen - like to imagine the world is more exciting and dramatic than it really is
    - sensitive
    - expressive and yet restrained

    Writing all these down just makes me realise how confusing this is could be for INFXs because a lot of this crosses over (or is at least associated with INFXs). Maybe that's what happened with you @prplchknz.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #32
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    All those things, yes 100 percent yes. Yes without question.

    Edited to add: I also have zero question about my stack.

    sp/sx
    "The sanctuary of home is of paramount concern, and this type takes particular delight in decorating their spaces to reflect their cherished sense of taste and depth. Depth and discrimination characterize this stacking.

    Motivation: to live in a secure, comfortable environment where they can pursue their private interests in depth."

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK. So what about the Social Four descriptions (note, take aspects of these descriptions with a grain of salt - I'm a Social 4 and I don't fit all these 100%):

    Social Fours: The Outsider (Ichazo's "Social Shame")
    Social Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in the social realm; thus, they are people who deeply want to belong, to be a part of an "in crowd" with a glamorous lifestyle, but who often fear that they are not up to it. Social Fours tend to be more extroverted than Fours of the other two instincts and can resemble Twos or Sevens. Social Fours can be quite funny, using droll, ironic humor to make a point or simply to stimulate conversation. They enjoy expressing their individuality and sense of style in a more public way, although they also attempt to conceal the extent of their feelings of social inadequacy or shame. Social Fours may work hard to develop a public persona through which they can communicate the depths of their feelings, but this persona is usually more glamorous and free than they actually feel. Social Fours are acutely aware of the artifice of their persona, but they use it nonetheless as a way of finding some sense of belonging and involvement in the world. When they are more troubled, Social Fours fear social humiliation to such a degree that they may retreat from much social contact, becoming isolated and reclusive. They may also develop a personal style cultivated to show the world how wounded and different they feel.
    Type 4: Shame/counter-shame

    In the social domain you easily can feel shame for not measuring up or being a “misfit.” You feel that your protective cover is removed and that your deficiencies or shortcomings will be exposed publicly. You mitigate your envy through shame. You want to hide your defects and deficiencies, keep your fatal flaws from being detected and avoid disgrace. Your shame also helps you feel or keep a connection to others: “They’ll notice me and my deficiencies, and I’ll matter.” This makes you feel special in the eyes of others. Shame also motivates you to do better – create an elegant image, produce pride of elitism, look unique and special, in short to develop counter-shame and a sense of honor for your integrity and what you do for the group. You may become an emotional truth-teller in the group. At your worst, shame can lead to retraction into self-absorption, depression or despair.
    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    - I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
    - I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
    - I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
    - I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
    - I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
    - I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
    - Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
    - I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
    Critics: Discriminating evaluators of art & ideas who are sensitive to social standards & thus conflicted about expressing their opinions outright
    Critical Commentator (shame/honor): Social acceptance or recognition brings honor & meaning; not belonging brings shame. The tension between needing to be socially correct & personally authentic > an aura of reserve. Need to “speak their truth”—are often the emotional truth-tellers in a group. But critical like 1s; must learn not to pressure themselves too much to be authentic & also not to be too critical or demand too much emotional intensity.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #34
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hmmm. And it's not a temporary feeling that's gotten worse (you haven't been feeling down or been having a rough time recently)? You've felt it your whole life that you're not just different, but missing something fundamental others have?

    If you're the latter, then maybe I was wrong. What about other 4 qualities? Do you identify with the rest of them or are some of them a bit hazy too:

    - strive for authenticity (especially in relation to a perceived lack in others)no
    - pretentious and arrogant at times, yet insecure at othersno, mostly just insecure
    - deeply introspective, self-absorbed and highly self-aware. You feel like you're not only living your life but watching yourself live it simultaneously.only in my dreams
    - regularly get lost in your own feelings and enjoy exploring your own dark side without fearyes
    - drawn to aestheticsno
    - cultivate a sense of identity based on what emotionally resonates with youno
    - have a personal ideal you attempt to live up to, but ultimately fail tono
    - have a melancholy streak yes
    - conceal inner feelings out of fear of being judgedmost of the time
    - want to be "rescued" by a lover and soul-mate use to
    - generally empathicbasically
    - moody and temperamentalyup
    - feel alone and misunderstoodnot all the time, it's more of i think people hide their true idenity which makes me feel this way, when in reality 99% of the population is like me, and they understand me more than i give them credit for
    - generally socially ineptyes
    - a bit of a drama queen - like to imagine the world is more exciting and dramatic than it really isthat's bullcrap, the world is exiciting you just have to look at it through the right lenses
    - sensitiveyeah
    - expressive and yet restrainedjust restrained

    Writing all these down just makes me realise how confusing this is could be for INFXs because a lot of this crosses over (or is at least associated with INFXs). Maybe that's what happened with you @prplchknz.
    i answered in bold
    Last edited by prplchknz; 08-25-2012 at 08:44 AM.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i answered in bold
    Yeah, I don't think you're a 4 then. If you were a bit iffy on a few of those (even I am at times) it would be fine, but there's too many differences.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    You might just have a really strong 5 wing, or may even be 5 instead. It’s more a 5 thing to actually feel like an alien, like there’s an ‘uniqueness’ (or a feeling of being different) that’s already there and there’s even a preoccupation of compensating for it rather than striving for it.
    I think this is just general "fourness". I think that with a three wing you craft a compelling dramatized image of this innate "weirdness" and relate to the world with your inner feeling displayed putting the crafted image out there. Some say fours with 3 wing are more likely to wear dramatic costumes etc. It's your artistic representation of an inner state and belief, but with an intent to engage. The projection is innately flawed as it cannot encompass the "real you" but it's effective. I think the "in your face" aspect of your projection varies with the instinctual variant.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    Could also be some Fe involved here as well, wanting said uniqueness to be accepted by the group. I already feel somehow outside of the circle, but I desire to have the unusual traits and interests embraced by the group. But at the same time, I recognize that everyone is unique in their own way, so it isn't just me.

    Maybe it is a strong 5-wing....
    Again...With having a kind of a need for dramatic display but having my INFJ Fe not wanting conflict with external world, for me, it was resolved by being a part of a subculture where it was acceptable to express yourself in an outlandish way, which means you are also around a great bunch of people who have made unusual lifestyle choices and appear "weird", so you don't look out of place. Yet you are able to be quite out there at the same time. The "artist/musician/ professional eccentric" identity gives you quite a lot of social leeway. Of course a hardcore four will still secretly think they are the most misunderstood and peculiar of the bunch and can never truly fit in, even among the misfits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I appreciate the feedback. This is hard to write about clearly so I'll just say it: I embody uniqueness to such an extent that I don't have to strive for it. I am unique. I have always always been different and it has always been pointed out to me. When I read the descriptions about 4s wanting to be unique, I can't relate, because it implies that you don't know you are unique, if it's something you long for. I don't long for it because I am it. I can remember not knowing it, but I was very young -- it came to me in feedback pretty quickly to make me realize that I was different. It's not what I would have chosen; it's what happened as a natural course of me unselfconsciously being myself and then seeing how people react to that.
    EDIT: This segment meant to serve as an example of how I felt as a child. Not how I feel or view myself today.

    Well how the drama developed in my own psyche I would say I felt like an odd duck. I was also considered odd. I had odd interests. I stood out.
    I at the time actually saw people who accenuated their difference as ornamentation as fake where I was the real deal (ironically as I did the same later on) . "I am unique."
    I have spent the better part of my life seeing myself as inherently different from others, thus not being in any conceivable way able to fit in, ergo I am unique in my own right, unlike other people who are not. But at the same time I'm terrified of being wrong and delusional. Just another muggle thinking too highly of themselves. Being fake. A failure. A defective specimen. That my internal landscapes are just the ramblings of a degenerate.
    But I'd rather romanticize being a degenerate and a lunatic (in the Rimbaudian sense...)because if that's taken away and I am not actually unique in anyway, but plain as bread...what then? It would go against everything. The very way I look at the world.

    The way I see it I have all my life genuinely felt I was not like others, that there was something inherently different within me. ...And, maybe this is the three wing, a kind of an ugly duckling. One day I'll let my swan out for everyone to see. Of course. In my head. But being 4w3 I did actually do that in my small way. Only to find out people liked my dramatization and began to see me as "special", but that was the moment I knew I wasn't. It was just make believe. A dream. I was terribly dissapointed. No reason to be. But I was because of my self deception. It had been for nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    my own infj mother is totally weird to me too! haha i tell her this frequently.

    maybe it doesn't always express itself as a want...maybe it's just more of an awareness...or a way of seeing yourself....a defining characteristic.

    because...i've been told i'm weird...i used to all the time. but...i don't see myself that way...and i don't think of it as a way to define myself. it just doesn't resonate with me as being important to who i am....possibly because i'm not that weird...or...possibly because i'm not a 4 and it's not something i pay attention to.
    This. Wether one is or is not weird is not the issue. Being invested in the idea of being different is
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting. A lot of what you say is similar to my own experience. I hate being weird and being made to feel self-conscious too. But to be perfectly honest, my weirdness is something I also take pride in (yes, I know how pathetic that sounds ).

    The thing is with 4s, it's not just that they are "unique", as if it's just a matter-of-fact truth they have to get used to; they want to be "unique" too. They (secretly) relish their difference, even if it's the negative kind. So you see, it's not just a personal quality that is thrust upon them, to some degree it's also a pursuit. Deep down, all 4s fear being normal.
    I think this is so true. It was the most devastating time for me when I had to consider the possibility that my own perceived inherent difference might be bullshit. I genuinely bought into it wholeheartedly. I have a friend who is an ardent buddhist and a four. For my friend there was a watershed moment when in their practice they came to a kind of a realization that they are not different from all the "muggles" who run around worried about their mortgages and which insurance to get. The way they said it played out was getting this concrete experience of BEING all those guys and that they'd been spending all this time looking for something special and finding the most obvious fact. Like discovering your big toe after you'd been looking for it all your life and secretly thinking you were a special individual on a mystical quest...a kind of a chosen one. ...but everyone has a big toe.
    For me I guess it was the painful process of finding out that I am not actually different. ...Well that's not entirely true... I am different. and here's the snowflake moment. Yes, everybody is. Ironically I am now after several years of trying to bring out my innate difference considered "different". The only difference is I chose to dramatize and display my deep feeling of being different in an aesthetic way. I'm just not buying into my difference anymore. When I get upset I still just want to think I'm not being able to handle certain situations because I am inherently different from humanity and I get an urge to start mythologizing it but I'm really really trying not to. Because I'm happier not doing that and just being human. Finally. I think that's the only way I can really genuinely feel dignified, though the fairydust is alluring.

  7. #37
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think this is just general "fourness". I think that with a three wing you craft a compelling dramatized image of this innate "weirdness" and relate to the world with your inner feeling displayed putting the crafted image out there. Some say fours with 3 wing are more likely to wear dramatic costumes etc. It's your artistic representation of an inner state and belief, but with an intent to engage. The projection is innately flawed as it cannot encompass the "real you" but it's effective. I think the "in your face" aspect of your projection varies with the instinctual variant.
    Huh? (You mean what I described sounded like general “fourness”?)

    The point I was trying to make is that fives already feel ‘different’ at the core. We feel like we need to be fully prepared going into situations or we won’t be able to keep up or compete with others. That’s how it started anyway- hoarding preparedness/understanding/knowledge because underneath it all it felt like if we didn’t then we’d be screwed- whereas most people (supposedly, I wouldn’t know) are able to trust that they’ll figure things out as they go. I think this tendency in 5s to hoard understanding/knowledge may often inevitably lead to arrogance, but initially it’s born from a sense of being different and less capable than most people. There’s a preoccupation with independence, not authenticity. I think maybe for 4s (and probably more 4w5) it’s more like a preoccupation with making sure the ‘alien-ness’ doesn’t get drowned out by others (?), but more on the 5w4 side it’s like a preoccupation with making sure we don’t get drowned out by others because of the ‘alien-ness’. E5s aren’t concerned the uniqueness/authenticity will get drowned out, the basic fear is more that we’ll get drowned out for having this 'unique-ness' in the first place.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Huh? (You mean what I described sounded like general “fourness”?)
    Yes... that's what I meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that fives already feel ‘different’ at the core. We feel like we need to be fully prepared going into situations or we won’t be able to keep up or compete with others. That’s how it started anyway- hoarding preparedness/understanding/knowledge because underneath it all it felt like if we didn’t then we’d be screwed- whereas most people (supposedly, I wouldn’t know) are able to trust that they’ll figure things out as they go. I think this tendency in 5s to hoard understanding/knowledge may often inevitably lead to arrogance, but initially it’s born from a sense of being different and less capable than most people. There’s a preoccupation with independence, not authenticity. I think maybe for 4s (and probably more 4w5) it’s more like a preoccupation with making sure the ‘alien-ness’ doesn’t get drowned out by others (?), but more on the 5w4 side it’s like a preoccupation with making sure we don’t get drowned out by others because of the ‘alien-ness’. E5s aren’t concerned the uniqueness/authenticity will get drowned out, the basic fear is more that we’ll get drowned out for having this 'unique-ness' in the first place.
    Thank you for clearing that up. I should have spent some time digesting your first post. I get what you mean now. I find it so hard to maybe separate the different elements from one another as I have 5 in my tritype, which made me think I was a 4w5 at first...so maybe I'm not quite clear on what goes where, so to speak. What is the 4 and what is the 3, then add five and most likely 8 there too, throw in some Ni and Fe and presto...
    Back to the old drawing board...marvin-the-martian-film.jpg

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