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Thread: INTJ 4s?

  1. #51
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    One of my eternal typological puzzles is, "What does a stupid INTJ look like?" or "What does a smart ESFP look like?" I.e., in what ways do the types legitimately wander outside their stereotypes, and how can we identify them there? My current hypotheses on the INTJ/ESFP questions are that the stupid INTJ might seem a bit autistic or have some degree of aspberger's, while the smart ESFP will likely come across as a skilled professional. I've several examples of the smart ESFPs in my circles of friends, mostly due to my dancing hobby.
    I think about the same thing too ... yet at the foundation of that, the trouble I have additionally is that there is (as you mention) this stereotypical tendency to see the INTJ as "smart" by default, and similarly, the ESFP "stupid". Interestingly, you and my ESFP son could have a rollicking discussion about quantum theory (a much better conversation than you could have with me on the topic lol) - perhaps you would not even think him ESFP because you share such an interest? Or that he would express such knowledge and enthusiasm about it? So, an intelligent ESFP is more to me than what you're saying - I don't think it's simply about appearing as a "skilled professional". (In fact, he looks kind of like a hobo-hippie Jesus, so I doubt you would see him as "professional" looking either!)

    I know the IQ tests all say that there's a higher probability that an INTJ will have a higher IQ than an ESFP, maybe that's true, maybe not. Yet, using my son as a specific example, he could generally care less about taking the tests in the first place and might even be intentionally sloppy just to ... do what he feels in that moment. Prove that it is a meaningless measure in his eyes.

    It's a conundrum for sure.
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  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's a conundrum for sure.
    It's just anecdotal evidence. Similarlly, I know an ESFP manager at work who comes across as an ISTJ in how she does her job. The statistics will show the overall pattern, assuming they are based on reliable data. To the extent that IQ tests measure education in addition to native intelligence, INTJs might come out ahead since we are often well-educated and well-read.
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  3. #53
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It's just anecdotal evidence. Similarlly, I know an ESFP manager at work who comes across as an ISTJ in how she does her job. The statistics will show the overall pattern, assuming they are based on reliable data. To the extent that IQ tests measure education in addition to native intelligence, INTJs might come out ahead since we are often well-educated and well-read.
    Well, sure, it's anecdotal evidence.

    I presented my 23 yo son as an example to an interesting pattern I have noted over the years contemplating the broader context of scholastic achievement, albeit limited to public school / high school since that's where I have most of my volunteer experience.

    During that time (in both of my kid's various schools) I have regarded that (who I typed as) SP's don't seem to actually CARE much about tests, especially achievement based tests. One of my daughter's SP friends even made a convincing argument in high school that testing was the underpinning of insidious scholastic discrimination.

    My concern about IQ testing is that what is being measured might be more about "who is more interested in taking tests / doing well in tests" than about "who's ACTUALLY got a higher / lower IQ". Plus, all the questions about what constitutes intelligence, 9 types of intelligence and IQ measures only 2, yadda yadda yadda.

    Then, I suppose you could argue that everyone should be "smart" enough to realize that it's important to do well on a test that could affect your FUTURE. However, the future is generally regarded as an antithesis to the definition of Se doms, is it not?

    Ergo, what I call the conundrum.

    Let's not pull a Lex T here regarding IQ.
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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  4. #54
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think about the same thing too ... yet at the foundation of that, the trouble I have additionally is that there is (as you mention) this stereotypical tendency to see the INTJ as "smart" by default, and similarly, the ESFP "stupid". Interestingly, you and my ESFP son could have a rollicking discussion about quantum theory (a much better conversation than you could have with me on the topic lol) - perhaps you would not even think him ESFP because you share such an interest? Or that he would express such knowledge and enthusiasm about it? So, an intelligent ESFP is more to me than what you're saying - I don't think it's simply about appearing as a "skilled professional". (In fact, he looks kind of like a hobo-hippie Jesus, so I doubt you would see him as "professional" looking either!)

    I know the IQ tests all say that there's a higher probability that an INTJ will have a higher IQ than an ESFP, maybe that's true, maybe not. Yet, using my son as a specific example, he could generally care less about taking the tests in the first place and might even be intentionally sloppy just to ... do what he feels in that moment. Prove that it is a meaningless measure in his eyes.

    It's a conundrum for sure.
    Yeah, I was just saying "skilled professional" is where I see them as an example, not that its a universal trait of the type. They're at the point where they're well aware of what the smart and stupid things are to do and have reprioritized their lives to handle those pieces, all the while maintaining their Se enthusiasm everywhere else. It's amusing in facebook to watch them make Ni-ish observations (usually in the form of a short, pithy good advice for living statement) and have others chime in with "So true!", etc. One friend of mine is in Europe right now, for work purposes, but she is totally into exploring the local scene (and of course the salsa dancing scene).

    I think the Nardi book helps explain the stereotypes a bit. An Se dom's strength is not in visualization or logic or words or grammar, it's in being aware and alert. A video game would more likely test that aptitude than any SAT-style test, where you'd be tested not only on what you know, but how quickly can you react to the question. Most INxx types need time to think and reflect, and would tend to do poorly on such quick-reaction tests as compared to the Se types.

    I recall the annoying "think fast" followed by a ball hitting me in the face or the side back in elementary school. That kind of fast thinking isn't what an INTJ does, but it is what an ESFP does (given practice, of course).

    The tricky part is figuring out how best to employ these relative strengths. What I see in real life is that ESFPs generally do figure it out, and end up being responsible and enthusiastic people once they've found their niche. And they probably have an easier time finding that niche than the overthinking INTJs do.
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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    An Se dom's strength is not in visualization or logic or words or grammar, it's in being aware and alert. A video game would more likely test that aptitude than any SAT-style test, where you'd be tested not only on what you know, but how quickly can you react to the question.
    You know, yesterday I was looking at ISTP with some fascination because I relate to a lot about that type. I know I am NOT one- best believe I use Ni over Se, but I suspect I have some fairly decent Se going on. Which is a good thing, yes? That is the path to balance.

    Maybe my love of certain video games has developed my Se? Maybe having PTSD has? Creating art? Sex? Tattoos?(Which would be turning a negative into a positive, I am not talking about hyper-awareness nowadays, though maybe that is how it initially came on...) Whatever the case, I am not horribly devoid of sensing even if it isn't my "default" mode.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Roses View Post
    You know, yesterday I was looking at ISTP with some fascination because I relate to a lot about that type. I know I am NOT one- best believe I use Ni over Se, but I suspect I have some fairly decent Se going on. Which is a good thing, yes? That is the path to balance.

    Maybe my love of certain video games has developed my Se? Maybe having PTSD has? Creating art? Sex? Tattoos?(Which would be turning a negative into a positive, I am not talking about hyper-awareness nowadays, though maybe that is how it initially came on...) Whatever the case, I am not horribly devoid of sensing even if it isn't my "default" mode.
    Se is related to the enjoyment of the external senses. Although the books and tests call it a "preference," it's actually much more than that. It's those who buy a convertible because of the pure enjoyment of feeling of the wind in their hair. Or a fast car because of the 'rush,' the sensation of speed. A video game may give the illusion of these things, for example, a guy I know who likes a snowboarding game because it's summer time and he's jonesing for the experience. But in the winter he went snowboarding at 5 different ski resorts in one week. For the Se type, a video game just acts as a proxy for the real thing.
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  7. #57
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Roses View Post
    You know, yesterday I was looking at ISTP with some fascination because I relate to a lot about that type. I know I am NOT one- best believe I use Ni over Se, but I suspect I have some fairly decent Se going on. Which is a good thing, yes? That is the path to balance.

    Maybe my love of certain video games has developed my Se? Maybe having PTSD has? Creating art? Sex? Tattoos?(Which would be turning a negative into a positive, I am not talking about hyper-awareness nowadays, though maybe that is how it initially came on...) Whatever the case, I am not horribly devoid of sensing even if it isn't my "default" mode.
    Yeah, the Se is there for INTJs, in both positive and negative ways, but it is almost never a high priority. Older INTJs definitely cultivate it in various ways, which explains my dancing and music hobbies, but they still filter it out in preference to the Ni vision as a matter of habit. It's why the corresponding flashes of Ni from SxPs can be so interesting, seeing how Ni plays out when it isn't a priority.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, the Se is there for INTJs, in both positive and negative ways, but it is almost never a high priority. Older INTJs definitely cultivate it in various ways, which explains my dancing and music hobbies, but they still filter it out in preference to the Ni vision as a matter of habit.
    I'm thinking of perm-banning the use of such terms as "preference" and "habit." I "think" because I love to think, not because I prefer to think. My friend snowboards because he loves to snowboard. He doesn't prefer to snowboard and it's not a habit. He doesn't prefer to use Se, he loves the experience of living in the external world of the senses. If anything, it's more of an addiction than a habit. I agree that he prefers one function over another. But that doesn't do justice to the sense of pure enjoyment on people's faces when they are doing what the love and living within the full capacity of their preferred function. It's more of a "high" than anything else.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Ergo, what I call the conundrum.

    Let's not pull a Lex T here regarding IQ.
    IQ tests, like other tests, measure what they are designed to test. The degree to which "intelligence" = IQ is highly debatable. As others have mentioned in detail elsewhere, IQ measures one type of intelligence, but there are many other aspects to intelligence which may be more useful in many situations.

    Bottom line: while INTJs on average may do better on IQ tests because they are more interested in taking them or more likely to pursue activities that prepare one for them, I would NOT consider this as evidence that INTJs are more intelligent overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I agree that he prefers one function over another. But that doesn't do justice to the sense of pure enjoyment on people's faces when they are doing what the love and living within the full capacity of their preferred function. It's more of a "high" than anything else.
    This applies to all types. There is room for both terms. "Preference" relates to the underlying cognitive functions, while "love", "enjoyment", "fulfillment", "high", etc. relate to our experience of the activities that allow us to express the full capacity of these functions.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This applies to all types. There is room for both terms. "Preference" relates to the underlying cognitive functions, while "love", "enjoyment", "fulfillment", "high", etc. relate to our experience of the activities that allow us to express the full capacity of these functions.
    I'm looking at something more defining. My preferences don't define me, as with preferring strawberry over chocolate ice cream. These things add "color" to who I am. I agree that using the term "prefer" is good for function analysis, but I'm going to start avoiding watered-down terms for doing what we love.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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