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Thread: INTJ 4s?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Absolutely. In fact it probably IMPLIES that you're INFJ!

    INFJs are very good at visual/spatial/pattern thinking, and in this sense tend to think much more like INTJs than INTPs. It tends to get hidden by the people skills, which is ironic, because INFJs are using that same kind of thinking to handle the people skills. The trade-off between INTJ and INFJ in this regard is that the INTJs forgo the people skills to become especially good at the objective visual pattern thinking, while the INFJ focus on using that kind of thinking on people skills means that they haven't had the same kind of practice an INTJ might on the more objective version - which is perhaps why it comes across as "tertiary Ti" in typology.

    (I should note that I'm using some of Nardi's recent findings in my explanations, here, where Ni doms are found to be remarkably similar, with INFJs being more concerned with "values", for lack of a better word.)
    I suppose that's where the stereotypical division between the INTJs hard sciences and INFJ soft sciences comes from. not that there aren't many exceptions. That Nardi research sounds really interesting. I have to get the book.

    @Cold Roses Coriolis is obviously right. Nothing external can ever dictate what we are. That information is stored within yourself and you're naturally not accountable to anyone about it. And you know what they say about opinions...well I best not repeat that old saying.

    For what it's worth this page helped me when I was looking for my type because the INFJ description just clicked, unlike many of the other descriptions I'd read, because they felt more external to me. The page has an INTJ profile too. The link: http://personalityjunkie.com/the-intj/
    Second page has the Te description.

  2. #42

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    Thanks for the assist, everyone. I have what I need to go on (INTJ) and will now put that intel to good use. Very helpful discussion, this.

    As for the death stare, it just is. Always has been. I don't need to be a bad cliche, that is definitely true. I'm not.

    Personalityjunkie is good stuff. I was reading the profiles of INTJ and INFJ recently. A friend who understands these things better explained the distinctions between Ti/Te, Fe/Fi and Ne/Ni enough for me to know that my default toolkit is Te/Ni and I am most certainly not a Fe. Maybe I have developed some more Fe skills as an adult out of having some sense that this would be a useful thing to do, but that isn't what I am working with innately.

  3. #43
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Yeah, on the flip side I thought I was INTJ for a while since I was scientifically minded and calculating. Logic and thinking is something that I connected with having an interest and academic background in science. What threw in the monkey wrench was the fact that I took people into consideration in my decision making. Even though I default to reason, I'm too nice/warm to be an INTJ. I can't help but to care for others and want to have respectful and harmonious relationships with them. (Fe!) If something put me into danger, I wouldn't compromise my values. I have a toughened edge for an INFJ, I think. I have a tough armor around me, and I'm very analytical, so I may appear INTJ-ish. But the description of INFJs fits too well.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  4. #44
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Is INTJ a common type for Enneagram 4? If you are one, do you feel like talking about it a little? (For example, say something about your stack, if you think that affects it, or talk about how you experience it.)

    This is for a friend who's searching.

    Thanks in advance.
    Type 4s who THINK they are, or might be, INTJ are common. This is caused by the Ni-Ti tertiary loop which brings out more of the skeptical thinking attitude, and more (i.e., unhealthy) amounts of introversion. Whenever you see "too much" introversion or extraversion, you are seeing the tertiary loop at work.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #45

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    All that may be true, but I am an INTJ. I am probably not a type 4. The enneagram tests seem so much more mutable. I have had a 4w5, and a 5w4 within days of each other. Events, perhaps. The overdose of a friend within this time period probably had some bearing on things. 5 could potentially be right. I am going to give it a minute before trying to figure that out.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Roses View Post
    All that may be true, but I am an INTJ. I am probably not a type 4. The enneagram tests seem so much more mutable. I have had a 4w5, and a 5w4 within days of each other. Events, perhaps. The overdose of a friend within this time period probably had some bearing on things. 5 could potentially be right. I am going to give it a minute before trying to figure that out.
    That's good, because in fact the INTJ's Ni-Fi loop doesn't get very much attention. So it would be nice if I could hear more about that one.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #47

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    "Fours and Fives can easily be mistyped by others, and Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the experience and expression of their emotional states. Fives tend to fear emotional overwhelm; Fours to welcome it." Food for thought right there.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Roses View Post
    "Fours and Fives can easily be mistyped by others, and Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the experience and expression of their emotional states. Fives tend to fear emotional overwhelm; Fours to welcome it." Food for thought right there.
    Sure. But does the 5w4 fear emotional overwhelm?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #49
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In the case of the "death stare", here's the INFJ vs INTJ difference. If an INFJ does it, it's entirely on purpose: there is an intended nonverbal communication. For INTJs, most of the time, it's almost a default look. If we're just "thinking hard", there's a death stare. Entirely different motivations. This is not to make INTJs out to be innocent as compared to INFJs: it's just a difference in communication styles. The target of the INFJ stare likely deserves it; the target of the INTJ stare is likely very puzzled about what is wrong, because nothing is wrong. Also, the INFJs, being Ni-doms, do have a default stare that is identifiable, but it doesn't have "death" written all over it - it's much more gentle, and generally not aimed at a person. (INTJs, especially younger ones, can be staring at a person and not realize it.)

    I’ll agree with this being more severe with INTJs- that INTJs will likely be less aware they’re doing it or of the affect they’re causing- but I don’t agree with “entirely on purpose” or “intended nonverbal communication”. It’s a small point, but seems worth mentioning (because if I were learning about mbti and trying to figure out T/F, the above comment might actually lead me to INTJ).

    If/when I give someone the stink eye, more often than not it’s because I’ve become impatient and I’m not paying enough attention to the extent which I’m inadvertently expressing that impatience. But it’s not on purpose. It may show when I’m agitated with someone- but I actually get deeply embarrassed by my inability to conceal frustration. Ideally I’d like to conceal it until I’m certain the frustration is warranted- and even then, (ideally) I’d like to find some diplomatic way of clearly expressing the frustration- but reality often plays out differently. It’s more like yelping “ouch!” when someone has stepped on my foot; there’s no intended meaning, it’s simply a knee-jerk reaction. I do agree that an INFJ will be (far) more inclined than INTJ to expect someone else to recognize this reaction, recognize the cause and modify their behavior accordingly- but I definitely don’t display it as an intentional cue for someone to modify their behavior. There’s even something abhorrent to me about the notion that it could be perceived as ‘entirely on purpose’ or as an ‘intended nonverbal cue’. It really is more like an embarrassing reaction- a wince caused by some kind of cognitive distress that happens in spite of myself.

    [I realize this might be nitpicky, but I don’t know, I think at least the INFJs I know/interact with are more embarrassed by it than not and would never do it on purpose. And really, “death stare” could mean so many things, I’m not even entirely sure I know specifically what you’re talking about. Still- what I just said can apply to *any* kind of intimidating/disapproving ‘glance’.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #50
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In the case of the "death stare", here's the INFJ vs INTJ difference. If an INFJ does it, it's entirely on purpose: there is an intended nonverbal communication. For INTJs, most of the time, it's almost a default look. If we're just "thinking hard", there's a death stare. Entirely different motivations. This is not to make INTJs out to be innocent as compared to INFJs: it's just a difference in communication styles. The target of the INFJ stare likely deserves it; the target of the INTJ stare is likely very puzzled about what is wrong, because nothing is wrong. Also, the INFJs, being Ni-doms, do have a default stare that is identifiable, but it doesn't have "death" written all over it - it's much more gentle, and generally not aimed at a person. (INTJs, especially younger ones, can be staring at a person and not realize it.)
    I agree with this. I have a Death Stare, too, but it's not my default face. I wasn't fully conscious of its effect on the other person until I was in my late twenties, and since then, I keep my face averted if I know that look is on it, if I'm feeling the things I know will produce that look -- unless I WANT to make the other person cry ... :-) But it's not the usual look on my face.

    I think there is something to a certain regard being characteristic of type.

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