[Type 4] INTJ 4s?

[Cold Roses]

I score consistently as NT, and INTJ. I don't know what to tell you. It isn't what I would choose, necessarily. But it doesn't feel like putting on the wrong sized shoe. I also don't know if I feel the need to be a prototypical INTJ that conforms to whatever stereotypes there are floating around. Maybe I do for some of them, others not so much. I can absolutely speak to not being any kind of E or S. If I don't read INTJ to you, perhaps you might tell me what you do read?

 

[Society]

If I don't read INTJ to you, perhaps you might tell me what you do read?

have you ever doorslammed someone?

*hides*

 

[Cold Roses]

I haven't. Ever. Not even my psychotic and abusive mother. Though I do try to keep my contact to a minimum. So...the more I look at how not decisive I am being, the more I have to consider that intp is right. NT is always what I score, but I took some specific test from an intj thread and my sorry arse came out intp. Extroverted intuition...still intro feeling though, yes? I'm going to try and talk with someone who gets this stuff better than I on vent later so I don't drive myself insane.

 

[Tiltyred]

I'd be very surprised if you were Ne.
You've described this as a stressful time in your life, and that skews responses. I see the fact that you want closure on this as soon as possible as indicating J. I'd imagine a P would be happier to sit with it or live with Xs.

 

[Cold Roses]

You think? Well, hades. I think I can safely bank on NT but ni ne ti te...This one is a dingbat. Friend of the family that helped rear me would swear I am NT as well but was too tired to dissect further.

 

[Viridian]

Maybe you should ask [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]! He's an INTJ with great knowledge of cognitive functions.

 

[Cold Roses]

Tilty has now explained ne and ni to me in terms that makes it pretty clear that I work with ni. That narrows it right back down to the one I always end up back with. But I think talking to a knowledgable INTJ can't be a bad thing. Insight.

 

[uumlau]

You think? Well, hades. I think I can safely bank on NT but ni ne ti te...This one is a dingbat. Friend of the family that helped rear me would swear I am NT as well but was too tired to dissect further.

Tilty has now explained ne and ni to me in terms that makes it pretty clear that I work with ni. That narrows it right back down to the one I always end up back with. But I think talking to a knowledgable INTJ can't be a bad thing. Insight.

Maybe you should ask [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]! He's an INTJ with great knowledge of cognitive functions.

INTJs and INFJs are pretty darn close, with INFJs being "nicer" if still very reserved. If you're sure you're working with Ni, it might help to read up on some Ni threads. There are one or two recent ones that are pretty good.

One problem for INxJs is that men will tend to type as INTJs, but when you look at their interaction style, they're trying to get group consensus, check on whether everyone is happy, etc. Similarly, the women will tend to type as INFJs, because they're in careers that can seem atypical of INTJs. I know one female INTJ that's a therapist for kids ... but there's a harsh bluntness there that is atypical of INFJs.

So, one indicator of being INTJ over INFJ for women is that extra harshness, or perhaps some "masculine" personality traits in terms of a sort of forcefulness of personality that is quite normal for an INTJ but not so normal for an INFJ.

Another indicator is thinking and talking in terms of things and facts, of accomplishing tasks, of logistics, of getting things done in an efficient and effective way. INFJs want to be similarly effective, but it's predominantly in terms of people and people-systems, not material or objective systems.

In terms of functions, one would try to look for Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti in the function order. This is one of those things that is fairly difficult to ascertain without a prolonged exposure to the concepts and seeing them play out in people. There are multiple Fe vs Fi threads on the forum that highlight these differences. The main difference is that the "i" functions are considered private and personal, and only indirectly and tentatively shared. The "e" functions are generally open and communicated with others. Thus Fe tends to communicate in terms of feeling and Te tends to communicate in terms of thinking. Fe tends to incur difficulty with Fi because it tries to communicate in terms of what Fi regards as private. Te tends to incur difficulty with Ti because it communicates in terms of what Ti regards as private.

Note that "Feeling" has nothing to do with "how emotional" you are. INTJs are very emotional, and very emotionally intense, but it's entirely under the hood. The death stare is that odd combination of being emotionally intense, but hiding it behind a cold, logical exterior. Women tend to soften these harder INTJ edges, whether due to socialization or biological considerations. So you need to look at the quality of the emotions and emotional expression, not the quantity.

A good litmus test is to just follow threads and arguments on typology forums, and whose arguments you tend to follow most easily. Both INTJ and INFJ statements will seem to be sensible, but one style will make a lot more sense than the other. Also check and see if xNTPs make more sense to you than INTJs: INFJs will be more receptive to the xNTP's Ti than INTJs.

I hope this helps.

 

[Cold Roses]

Thank you, sir. Forcefulness of personality...yeah, check on that. I have heard that one a time or twelve. I have a confirmed death stare. I didn't even know about the INTJ death stare connection until a few days ago when a friend told me about it, but I knew I had "a look". A family friend helped raise me told me the other day that I have had THAT look since I was a toddler. I have been long aware of its existence because I have good friends that will call me on my bull. Of course, in this instance, it has little and less to do with intention. Unless it IS intentional, but...different story, that. I am so very definitely not a Fe and most certainly a Ni. I have been doing a lot of reading. It's been extremely helpful. I have bounced around a bit over the past few days as I take in information. Sometimes I jump to conclusions and then I get a little bit more information...

Still, I have landed right back where I started. INTJ.

I agree with your statements about emotional intensity, and I can say this: I have a keen suspicion that my last boyfriend was an INTP and we could have some good talks, yet other times...total disconnect. At least a few times a week we would end up at a conversational standstill. The lover before that, who is still a dear friend, I suspect is an INTJ and we have none of those issues. We don't agree on everything, but we seem to be able to understand and appreciate each other's view. I find it funny, I always viewed his brand of death stare as intense and smouldering, in a way. That makes sense to me.

I needed clarification from folks that have the greater expertise with this stuff, and I am finding that in abundance. Thank you.

 

[Mal12345]

A good litmus test is to just follow threads and arguments on typology forums, and whose arguments you tend to follow most easily. Both INTJ and INFJ statements will seem to be sensible, but one style will make a lot more sense than the other. Also check and see if xNTPs make more sense to you than INTJs: INFJs will be more receptive to the xNTP's Ti than INTJs.

They resonate, that's for sure. It must have something to do with the INFJ's Ti tertiary which the INTJ lacks. I think INTJ coldness of emotion comes from the Fi tertiary, but that's for another topic.

 

[FireShield98]

I used to think I was a 4w5 (or 5w4), then I realized that I only displayed the attributes of an unhealthy 4 (and 5), and decided that I fit the 1w9 (and 8w9) description better.

 

[Cold Roses]

The whole enneagram situation I can't speak on with confidence, yet. I'm good with INTJ as it stands, even though I had a rapid cycle of working that out (out loud, which was sloppy and I am irritated by), but I also have a history with that type. That was my original type, and the only type I consistently get results in. Enneagram is new. I don't recall having taken one around the time I first encountered MBTI. I will have to give it more consideration.

 

[animenagai]

I would love to meet one of these type for INTJ's in person one day. Seems interesting.

On INFJ vs INTJ, it's never a good idea to type using behavioral stereotypes. It's much better trying to understand the functions. Fe vs Fi should be a good clue.

 

[animenagai]

I would love to meet one of these type for INTJ's in person one day. Seems interesting.

On INFJ vs INTJ, it's never a good idea to type using behavioral stereotypes. It's much better trying to understand the functions. Fe vs Fi should be a good clue.

 

[SD45T-2]

I would love to meet one of these type for INTJ's in person one day. Seems interesting.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqBHo04-780"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqBHo04-780[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLvlCHWsgo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLvlCHWsgo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Reverie]

I posted a type me under INTJ or INFJ?. I feel for certain that INTP is off the table. I don't even have much cause to think that was right other than a friend who is an INTP saying she sees some similarities between us. I've only tested as an INTJ or INFJ. Appreciate the help. I know that enneagram is right, at least. Sits perfectly well with me.

Sorry to add to the confusion but I just noticed some things you said that caught my attention...Could the INTP likeness be an emphasized use of Ti???

It might also be worthwhile to note that at 18, a very long and formal psychological report done in a professional environment suggested that I was strongly androgynous due to having a pattern of thinking most associated with males while having traditional feminine values on the flip side.

I'm an INFJ and I do very well in your typical I.Q. tests, like the one Mensa uses, which a psychologist friend of mine says have a bias toward being male friendly. I also work in a male dominated field. It's obvious still that I'm a Fe user.

have you ever doorslammed someone?

*hides*

Don't you start with that again. There will be no slamming here!

One problem for INxJs is that men will tend to type as INTJs, but when you look at their interaction style, they're trying to get group consensus, check on whether everyone is happy, etc. Similarly, the women will tend to type as INFJs, because they're in careers that can seem atypical of INTJs. I know one female INTJ that's a therapist for kids ... but there's a harsh bluntness there that is atypical of INFJs.

So, one indicator of being INTJ over INFJ for women is that extra harshness, or perhaps some "masculine" personality traits in terms of a sort of forcefulness of personality that is quite normal for an INTJ but not so normal for an INFJ.

Another indicator is thinking and talking in terms of things and facts, of accomplishing tasks, of logistics, of getting things done in an efficient and effective way. INFJs want to be similarly effective, but it's predominantly in terms of people and people-systems, not material or objective systems.

In terms of functions, one would try to look for Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti in the function order. This is one of those things that is fairly difficult to ascertain without a prolonged exposure to the concepts and seeing them play out in people. There are multiple Fe vs Fi threads on the forum that highlight these differences. The main difference is that the "i" functions are considered private and personal, and only indirectly and tentatively shared. The "e" functions are generally open and communicated with others. Thus Fe tends to communicate in terms of feeling and Te tends to communicate in terms of thinking. Fe tends to incur difficulty with Fi because it tries to communicate in terms of what Fi regards as private. Te tends to incur difficulty with Ti because it communicates in terms of what Ti regards as private.

Note that "Feeling" has nothing to do with "how emotional" you are. INTJs are very emotional, and very emotionally intense, but it's entirely under the hood. The death stare is that odd combination of being emotionally intense, but hiding it behind a cold, logical exterior. Women tend to soften these harder INTJ edges, whether due to socialization or biological considerations. So you need to look at the quality of the emotions and emotional expression, not the quantity.

A good litmus test is to just follow threads and arguments on typology forums, and whose arguments you tend to follow most easily. Both INTJ and INFJ statements will seem to be sensible, but one style will make a lot more sense than the other. Also check and see if xNTPs make more sense to you than INTJs: INFJs will be more receptive to the xNTP's Ti than INTJs.

I hope this helps.

I think for some INFJs it's harder to recognize themselves from the forum. They may have a kind of a harshness about them because they may have developed a more straightforward way of communicating.Though the mostly INFJ forums tend to bring out the more private side of INFJs that is reserved for private interaction. The general tone of this forum is quite careful, non confrontational tone like many ISFJs have. I don't know why that is. Maybe because of all the INFJ critical threads. I'm like an ISFJ to a point but am more airy fairy and a bit of a pistol. So are most my ENFJ friends too.

To add to extra confusion I've worked with men for a decade and it definetly shows as you can be more to the point (it actually helps if you want to have any credibility). I think that confuses people sometimes. I still come off as "sweet and considerate" when talking to people in person. Writing style is more a continuation of my way of writing, which again is more blunt.

I completely agree about the way you described INTJ women, because most tend to be very blunt and just the cake, no decorations, which I personally like.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the death stare basket because I've been told I have it. It's activated by rudeness one does not want to reply to with rude yelling...so all the venom is concentrated and relayed through an ocular beam of
It's saying
It's telling someone off without opening your mouth.

It's really hard to distinguish between INFJs and INTJs because when you mentioned talking about accomplishing tasks and things to to I think that's a J thing. INFJs have the 1 or 2 projects they are constantly pushing to achieve and when you do talk about them you will talk in facts and steps and the most efficient way of accomplishing goals (but factoring in the human element as very relevant and the general good it will bring to the human's involved, and maybe mankind if you're feeling very grandiose ).

The INTJ thinking is very foreign to me. I find I relate better to the other Ti users in that area ENTPs ESTPs INTPs

 

[uumlau]

The INTJ thinking is very foreign to me. I find I relate better to the other Ti users in that area ENTPs ESTPs INTPs

Yes, this is the key. It's hard to use words to describe the INTJ harshness vs the INFJ subtlety, because you'd need a full movie to really show people what to look for. People can do the same things, except they can do them for entirely different motivations. It's by seeing whose motivations (thinking) you understand (not necessarily agree with) the best, the one can determine for oneself what one's type is in a more-or-less conclusive manner.

In the case of the "death stare", here's the INFJ vs INTJ difference. If an INFJ does it, it's entirely on purpose: there is an intended nonverbal communication. For INTJs, most of the time, it's almost a default look. If we're just "thinking hard", there's a death stare. Entirely different motivations. This is not to make INTJs out to be innocent as compared to INFJs: it's just a difference in communication styles. The target of the INFJ stare likely deserves it; the target of the INTJ stare is likely very puzzled about what is wrong, because nothing is wrong. Also, the INFJs, being Ni-doms, do have a default stare that is identifiable, but it doesn't have "death" written all over it - it's much more gentle, and generally not aimed at a person. (INTJs, especially younger ones, can be staring at a person and not realize it.)

IQ tests really don't have much to say about psychological type. One of my eternal typological puzzles is, "What does a stupid INTJ look like?" or "What does a smart ESFP look like?" I.e., in what ways do the types legitimately wander outside their stereotypes, and how can we identify them there? My current hypotheses on the INTJ/ESFP questions are that the stupid INTJ might seem a bit autistic or have some degree of aspberger's, while the smart ESFP will likely come across as a skilled professional. I've several examples of the smart ESFPs in my circles of friends, mostly due to my dancing hobby.

 

[Reverie]

IQ tests really don't have much to say about psychological type. One of my eternal typological puzzles is, "What does a stupid INTJ look like?" or "What does a smart ESFP look like?" I.e., in what ways do the types legitimately wander outside their stereotypes, and how can we identify them there? My current hypotheses on the INTJ/ESFP questions are that the stupid INTJ might seem a bit autistic or have some degree of aspberger's, while the smart ESFP will likely come across as a skilled professional. I've several examples of the smart ESFPs in my circles of friends, mostly due to my dancing hobby.

Just for the record I don't think IQ tests say anything about type. I know many people from all types who are incredibly intelligent, wether they have S, F or N preference is insignificant. I was just commenting on the "male brain" being associated with pattern thinking, which I personally (not as a type "representative") have a far higher than average ability in indicated by the fact I score well on tests that measure that type of ability AND I'm an INFJ...so just saying having that type of a brain does not rule out that you're an INFJ.

 

[uumlau]

Just for the record I don't think IQ tests say anything about type. I know many people from all types who are incredibly intelligent, wether they have S, F or N preference is insignificant. I was just commenting on the "male brain" being associated with pattern thinking, which I personally (not as a type "representative") have a far higher than average ability in indicated by the fact I score well on tests that measure that type of ability AND I'm an INFJ...so just saying having that type of a brain does not rule out that you're an INFJ.

Absolutely. In fact it probably IMPLIES that you're INFJ!

INFJs are very good at visual/spatial/pattern thinking, and in this sense tend to think much more like INTJs than INTPs. It tends to get hidden by the people skills, which is ironic, because INFJs are using that same kind of thinking to handle the people skills. The trade-off between INTJ and INFJ in this regard is that the INTJs forgo the people skills to become especially good at the objective visual pattern thinking, while the INFJ focus on using that kind of thinking on people skills means that they haven't had the same kind of practice an INTJ might on the more objective version - which is perhaps why it comes across as "tertiary Ti" in typology.

(I should note that I'm using some of Nardi's recent findings in my explanations, here, where Ni doms are found to be remarkably similar, with INFJs being more concerned with "values", for lack of a better word.)

 

[Coriolis]

I score consistently as NT, and INTJ. I don't know what to tell you. It isn't what I would choose, necessarily. But it doesn't feel like putting on the wrong sized shoe. I also don't know if I feel the need to be a prototypical INTJ that conforms to whatever stereotypes there are floating around. Maybe I do for some of them, others not so much. I can absolutely speak to not being any kind of E or S. If I don't read INTJ to you, perhaps you might tell me what you do read?

I at least do not see anything in your comments that is inconsistent with INTJ, thoiugh I am not the best judge of type. More to the point, though, you do not "need" to be a prototypical anything. Just be yourself. Yes, some people get spun up in discovering (or thinking they have discovered) their type and try to match some description or stereotype to the letter. If the discovery helps you realize you have an undeveloped talent, or have been trying to be something you are not, then perhaps some change is in order. You are who you are, though, and it is up to the theory to approximate you as best it can, not the reverse.

It might also be worthwhile to note that at 18, a very long and formal psychological report done in a professional environment suggested that I was strongly androgynous due to having a pattern of thinking most associated with males while having traditional feminine values on the flip side.

Androgynous? Male? Feminine? In the inimitable words of Kalach, pffft.

You are human. You are you. Don't get distracted by labels, drill through them to the meat of the information. INTJ is an amazing type to be, whether male or female, e5, 4, 8, or whatever. Now you just have to decide what you want to do with it.