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  1. #21
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @mmhmm
    as promised
    3 and 7 can be a lot alike, particularly externally
    - both in the Id/Assertive triad
    - both have magnetic personalities
    - both can become histrionic and attention whoring under stress (people have accused me of being a 3 because of this, but it happens to 7s too lol)
    - both are denying/avoiding types (3s avoid
    - both are ambitious and energetic

    the differences lie on the inside
    - what they avoid is different. 3s avoid stagnation, self esteem to them is not an intrinsic thing, but a treadmill that they constantly have to be running on to maintain their self worth. 7s avoid pain, unpleasantness and life problems. we are the ultimate procrastinators of the enneagram. once
    - 3s are ambitious for it's own sake; 7s are ambitious to get a better life for themselves. 7s might work very hard, but they plan this around their life; 3s on the other hand have a tendency to plan their life around their work. 7s live for enjoyment. if we can't enjoy something, we don't do it.

    don't get me wrong, 3w4 is a cool type and I share a few outward characteristics with it (often cold/icy, professional etc) but if you looked at my past and really got to know me, you would very little core 3 (I'm a tentative believer in trifix, and I believe my heart fix is 3w4, but it's by far my weakest after 1w2 and 7w8)

    anyway, because I think 3 is a very misunderstood type and it might better illustrate some of the differences, here's a collection of posts I posted on personality cafe about 3s.

    I think it is because 3s lack a sense of intrinsic value. they don't grasp the concept of self love and acceptance for it's own sake. to a 3, they think that surely these things are conditional, so they spend their lives looking for positive external feedback. feedback to "measure" their worth or give them worth in the first place. these things could range from
    - beauty
    - status
    - various abilities (high intelligence, good at sports, possessing a brilliant soprano singing voice)
    - high external metrics (such as grades, income etc)

    essentially, the 3 is looking for proof
    - proof that they are worth something
    - proof that they've "earned" what they have. for instance, when a 3 sees a confident person, the tendency is to think "what did he do that makes him so confident?"
    in reality though neither of these things need proof. you can to love yourself, you can choose to feel valuable, you can choose to form a positive self concept. and that's all the reason you need, because you choose to.
    a healthy, self actualized 3 is one who can get back in touch with this idea of intrinsic value and becomes a human being as opposed to a human doing. they will still be very motivated, ambitious and seek accomplishments, because even a healthy person, this feels good, but this tendency is kept in perspective by the knowledge that they are fine just the way they are and don't need to prove themselves to the world for the sake of self worth.
    compare that with this description of the self preservation 7, which can be somewhat 3-ish (this descriptions describes almost everything about me)
    The Self-Preservation Instinct in the Seven
    "Getting Mine" (Ichazo's "Defenders") In the average range, Self-Preservation Sevens are determined, energetic people, driven to make sure that their basic needs and comforts will always be met. Their attitudes and concerns tend to emphasize the practical and the material. (In the immortal words of Scarlett O'Hara, "As God is my witness, I will never go hungry again!") They tend to be ambitious and work hard to insure that options will remain open to them.

    Self-Preservation Sevens know that they cannot keep track of every piece of information they may need, so they often cultivate a group of friends and "advisors" who share enthusiasms and interests with them. These people keep the Seven informed of new possibilities and resources, and provide the stimulation and social interaction that Sevens enjoy. Self-Preservation Sevens enjoy learning about others' plans and projects as well as regaling others with their own. This is not the same as the bonding with others found in some Sixes, however. The feeling is looser—Self-Preservation Sevens are not interested in developing dependencies on others or in having others depend excessively on them. They want to be able to come and go as they choose and are impatient with restrictions—group participation must feel voluntary, not obligatory.

    Less healthy Self-Preservation Sevens can feel impatient and panicky when their needs are not quickly met. They often experience anxieties about the loss of comforts or of material support, and easily feel deprived. (Fears about going hungry are not uncommon.) They can be extremely demanding and cranky when frustrated, expecting others to meet their needs as soon as they are expressed—or even sooner.

    In the unhealthy range, Self-Preservation Sevens can be extremely thoughtless and relentless in pursuit of security needs. They aggressively go after whatever they believe will make them feel more secure or stave off their anxiety, and brook no interference. Reckless with their finances and resources, spending out of control or gambling, they can be even more profligate with their own health and inner resources. They push themselves beyond reasonable limits, eating, drinking, and indulging themselves to excess.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  2. #22
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    i think we've had this conversation via our walls before
    @Elfboy i still think you're relying on behaviour descriptions,
    and not looking beyond that to see your own underlying motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I've been thinking about it, and I think I'm REALLY disintegrated.
    - I avoid facing reality like the plague
    - I am becoming increasingly condemning, harsh, critical and angry (stress 1, possibly unhealthy wing 8 tendencies)
    - I feel like there is this fog clouding my vision, keeping me from concentrating
    - my mind is never in the moment. I've almost lost the ability to focus on anything in the moment completely
    - histrionic and provocative
    does anyone have any advice?
    just take a look at the descriptors you posted yourself as to why you think
    you're an unhealthy 7. it all points to desires of 3.

    -your avoidance for reality stems from your unsatisfied
    needs of where you are / the people that surround you
    (kansas etc) and how you wish to be an opera aficionado
    on some yacht in the Mediterranean.

    --this leads to you becoming critical, angry, the way you
    condemn those around you, how you are disappointed in
    your parents taste/choices/where your live/taste preferences
    of others that don't align with your "high" standard. again,
    when you voice these dissapointments it's always toward a
    specific issue (see your own post) - "currently i feel unhealthy
    and here's why: x,y,z - give me advice
    ".

    -finding that you are unhealthy because you want to be able to
    concentrate, wanting to be in the moment, desire to have a clearly
    defined non-foggy goal (for 7s, this won't bother them a bit, it's a
    way of being--a flighty scattered person finds being flighty and scattered
    their normal state and won't stress on the fact they are indeed flighty,
    because they want to be flighty)

    if anything, you seeking for something that you think is more preferable,
    you desire a goal, (moving out, getting a job, becoming independent, finer
    things in life [this is how you responded in the 'love what you do and money comes' thread])
    --all specifics and how consistently vocal you are about striving to
    your ideals comes across more (focused) apparent than 7 qualities (scattered).

    7s sense of self is maintained by acquiring things--whether it be experiences
    or objects. you don't talk about a scattered amount of things based on your
    postings on the forum. your thought patterns aren't "i want these pair of shoes,
    i want this car, and a butterfly, ohhow sand skiing and maybe a "...

    all your wants point back to the same goal because 3s sense of self is
    maintained by what they make out of their lives to be (how you know
    you deserve better, how you want to leave kansas, how you want to get
    your own place and become more independent in order to make steps to
    fulfill that life you envisioned.)

    but then again, nobody can change your mind because you're focused
    on the idea that you are a 7 (helloooo 3 )
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @mmhmm
    - the description of type 3 I posted goes well past surface level behavior
    - material possessions and independence are all I care about (I talk about them all day with my friends, but no one seems to care here). my motto is: "knowledge is the servant of action, action is the servant of results, results are the servant of pleasure"
    - you are definitely wrong about me not enjoying being flighty, thing is though, I can't afford to be right now. once I move out of the house, get a decent income and have financial security, I will return to my natural, flighty self. if you see focus in me (I'm flattered, I don't think I have any lol) it's probably due to the 8 wing (fixation on power and manifesting one's will in the world). 3s are climbers, they want to climb, climb some more and when they get to the top, they get bored and want to climb something else. 7s aren't like this. we are lazy and have trouble doing anything that doesn't lead to instant gratification. 7 is the eternal child of the enneagram. we spend our time distracting ourselves and trying to escape from our problems. the 3 on the other hand is naturally responsible, hard working and focused (things I would appreciate more of in myself LOL)
    - I have tasted poverty, abuse (by peers, not family) and being stomped on by those who held power over me. I know what it is like at the bottom of the food chain and it sucks. you never get your way, no one respects you (3s are not the only type that cares about respect, it's also an issue for 8s and 1s), you have not choice/say in anything and people will hurt you if they can get away with it, so, while being a highly focused individual is not in my nature, if I am indeed focused, it is for these reasons. I feel like a trapped raccoon. normally, I would be adventurous, mischievous, non-conscientious and living life as it comes, but that all changes when I'm trapped. if you trap a raccoon, they suddenly become vicious, aggressive and viciously focused on escaping.
    - I don't relate to the Sp descriptions of 3, granted, I relate much more to the Sx descriptions of 3w4 (Madonna, Cleopatra, Poison Ivy, Nero etc) but I'm fairly certain I'm Sp/Sx, so that makes me doubt 3
    - 3s are inherently competitive. there is not an ounce of competitiveness in me.

    your avoidance for reality stems from your unsatisfied
    needs of where you are / the people that surround you
    (kansas etc) and how you wish to be an opera aficionado
    on some yacht in the Mediterranean.
    true dat, I just think this points to 7 and not 3
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  4. #24
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @mmhmm
    I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment and say that 3w4 would definitely explain my desire to repress my the ENFP "Ne silly switch" more than other ENFPs. I want to be a xxTJ dammit!


    ...in all seriousness though, I can't wait until I'm old so I can be a kid again as opposed to being 20 and trying to be treated like (and be a mature, responsible adult. (the irony here is painful) there're so many consequences for being reckless and immature when you're young, broke, powerless etc. I'll risk being impulsive, hedonist and falling on my ass once it's covered by a cushion of soft, velvety money (or gold, that's fine too )
    don't get me wrong, people generally respect me a lot when they first meet me, but they tend to respect me less once they see my hidden "silly side" and this gets on my nerves. in my personal life, no biggie, I just ditch them and hang out with someone who appreciates my silly, spontaneous sense of humor, but at work? not cool.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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