User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 118

  1. #81
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    In that light I'ld say an enfp 8 is more likely than an entp 8
    From what I've seen, ENTP's usually come out as 7w8. (Or ar you talking about pure 8 only).

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I think Elfboy is just noticing the fact that Ji (generally Fi and Ti) are, in ancient Greek terms, considered to be Cholerics. But in modern times this labeling has changed. So it's not like he hasn't observed something important, it's only that he's implicitly siding with Galen the Physician.
    Again, classic Choleric would be more Je than Ji. (Particularly Te. I also believe NT fits it as well, but on a different level than social behavior. For ENT's, it is more obvious because it is amplified by the extraversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    The number of FP males enneagram 8 is not at all negligible. The gut instinct is not just a physical thing. It relates to anger specifically. If you are and FP male, life gives you plenty of reasons to be angry from a very early age.This too is an oversimplification....what I'm getting at is that cognition and motivation are related but not in a clear cut way. There are cultural phenomenons that deeply affect all of this too. Your sex plays a part too.
    But if this is what you are associating 8 with, that sort of makes it sound like it is just from a person's situation, and not really a fundamental type.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #82
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, classic Choleric would be more Je than Ji. (Particularly Te. I also believe NT fits it as well, but on a different level than social behavior. For ENT's, it is more obvious because it is amplified by the extraversion.
    Of course you're getting Te from this idea (from Wikipedia), 'A Choleric, however, is an extroverted "leader"-type who, in the area of control, has a high need to control others, but a low tolerance of others controlling him.' As I said, that's the modern version. And the modern version would have the Ti and Fi as Melancholic types.

    However, if you look here

    http://www.ptypes.com/temperaments.html

    you will see that Galen included the Choleric temperament with the schizothymics (as opposed to the cyclothymics):

    Schizothymia is a temperament related to schizophrenia in a way analogous to cyclothymia's relationship with bipolar disorder. A schizothymic individual displays a flat affect and a high degree of introversion, withdrawing from social relations generally; nevertheless, some individuals with this characteristic may be able to achieve relatively affable social relations and a measure of affectivity in some situations. As a kind of temperament, schizothymic personality traits are thought to be more or less innate rather than the result of socialization (or a lack thereof).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #83
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    6,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I appreciate your creativity there, but no matter how hard you try to spin it, 8 and Fi are not similar. That's a fact!
    I was not trying to say they are close to the same thing. I was saying their relation is the same as the relation between 8 and Te, for the most part. As a fellow ENP I'd urge you to check your sources for "facts" on a daily basis There are no facts concerning this that I know of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But if this is what you are associating 8 with, that sort of makes it sound like it is just from a person's situation, and not really a fundamental type.
    My style of communication often times comes bitting me on my arse....I stayed away from direct definitions because I'm not claiming I know how Fi and 8 (or any two other enneagram/MBTI concepts for that matter) relate to each other specifically only that they clearly do. This only makes sense if one understands we are no just our enneagram number and wing, but are affected by the whole circle; also, the enneagram tells us we can move in that circle.

    The more I investigate psychology the more I'm inclined to stay away from nature/nurture debates. It's mostly a moot point since I'm not claiming anything regarding what came first anyway.

    I don't think enneagram is merely nature OR nurture. Even if I have a predisposition from birth to be a certain way, my life experiences may satisfy my special needs favorably and thus my enneagram test results might still be slightly skewed. Not to mention one is even recommended to grow. As a 9 I hope in a few years time my 3 scores are much higher since that would mean I'm moving in my direction of integration. Integration being a keyword here people since that is the enneagram's "aim".

    I'm not trying to make a direct correlation between Fi and 8 per se.....my view is that the gut instinct, Fi and Te, the need to withdraw or assert one's presence in the environment AS WELL as the fundamental needs for peace/love (9) and truth/strength (8) of the individual might all be interdependent. These matters are all related to the same "energies"/impulses if you will so that if you affect one of them you also affect the other. Let's not forget these systems are here for us to MAP reality, but are not reality in themselves. As ever, the map is not territory.


    Also I'd like to add, to whom it may concern, that in the light of new data or experience words like spiritualism and mysticism (and the inventors of these models are no strangers to those) lose their "la-la" weight. The new religion of the ages is science, and anything even sounding in any way less scientific is deemed heresy and taboo. But there are reasons people like Jung investigated certain topics. This is not the same thing as saying that mysticism is suddenly a source of truth.

    The point is that someone studying psychology with any degree of sincerity has to open himself up to all sorts philosophical questions. The study of the human psyche is the study of our reality as well. And to do that one must be open-minded. Something is only hocus-pocus insofar as we predefine it as such. What do the words religion, spiritual and msytical mean to any one of us? For a long time they held negative, wishy-washy meanings for me. Nowadays they have no more such weight for the most part. And I'm not more religious, spiritual or mystical for it. Also anyone who worships science (since science is but one of men's many gods throughout history) should do well to ponder on history's greatest geniuses and their philosophies and worldviews and inquire into them.

  4. #84
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Of course you're getting Te from this idea (from Wikipedia), 'A Choleric, however, is an extroverted "leader"-type who, in the area of control, has a high need to control others, but a low tolerance of others controlling him.' As I said, that's the modern version. And the modern version would have the Ti and Fi as Melancholic types.

    However, if you look here

    http://www.ptypes.com/temperaments.html

    you will see that Galen included the Choleric temperament with the schizothymics (as opposed to the cyclothymics):
    That doesn't say Galen included Choleric with the schizothymes. Galen spoke of the Choleric, not the schizothymes. That was from Kretschmer, and Keirsey drew that from Kretschmer and matched it with the MBTI iNtuitives, whom he linked to both the Choleric and the Phlegmatic. And of course, all iNtuitives are not introverts. Keirsey did call them "introspective", however, and probably linked that to the "introversion" of that definition. Besides, Kretschmer probably drew from a disorder, and named the groups of characters after them, so it probably does not necessarily literally include all of those descriptions. (Any more than a Choleric person actually has too much yellow bile in his body).

    Galen's original definition was that it was "hot" and "dry" (like fire). Hot= expressive; dry corresponds to task rather than people focus. Later, it was defined as having a shot response delay (again, expressive, quick to act) and a long response sustain (holds onto emotions longer, more serious and critical).
    This is where those "modern" definitions comes from.

    There is no modern version that maps the eight function-attitudes to the four temperaments. Te is associated with Choleric through Interaction Style (dom. Te's are always "In Charge"; which is extraverted and directive, fitting the original factor definition). Fi would be more the opposite, Phlegmatic. (Behind the Scenes). Si is associated with Melancholic through SJ, and Se is associated with Sanguine through SP. Ti does not fit any of those, but it sort of mixed, from being T (leans towards task), yet P in attitude (Ji), which softens its task focus, unlike Te, which is totally task-focused). ISTP is Melancholic by virtue of being Chart the Course, but INTP is Behind the Scenes (and the T figures in the conative temperament--NT, rather than the Interaction Style).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  5. #85
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That doesn't say Galen included Choleric with the schizothymes. Galen spoke of the Choleric, not the schizothymes. That was from Kretschmer, and Keirsey drew that from Kretschmer and matched it with the MBTI iNtuitives, whom he linked to both the Choleric and the Phlegmatic. And of course, all iNtuitives are not introverts. Keirsey did call them "introspective", however, and probably linked that to the "introversion" of that definition. Besides, Kretschmer probably drew from a disorder, and named the groups of characters after them, so it probably does not necessarily literally include all of those descriptions. (Any more than a Choleric person actually has too much yellow bile in his body).

    Galen's original definition was that it was "hot" and "dry" (like fire). Hot= expressive; dry corresponds to task rather than people focus. Later, it was defined as having a shot response delay (again, expressive, quick to act) and a long response sustain (holds onto emotions longer, more serious and critical).
    This is where those "modern" definitions comes from.

    There is no modern version that maps the eight function-attitudes to the four temperaments. Te is associated with Choleric through Interaction Style (dom. Te's are always "In Charge"; which is extraverted and directive, fitting the original factor definition). Fi would be more the opposite, Phlegmatic. (Behind the Scenes). Si is associated with Melancholic through SJ, and Se is associated with Sanguine through SP. Ti does not fit any of those, but it sort of mixed, from being T (leans towards task), yet P in attitude (Ji), which softens its task focus, unlike Te, which is totally task-focused). ISTP is Melancholic by virtue of being Chart the Course, but INTP is Behind the Scenes (and the T figures in the conative temperament--NT, rather than the Interaction Style).
    This is getting off track. Galen described the Choleric type in terms of what we today would call schizothymic. Obviously, Galen had no concept of schizothymia, or cyclothymia. For Galen, being slow to respond did not matter in his equation. It's the response that mattered.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #86
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    I am interested in your statements on Gurdjieff and his philosophy about self awareness. He recommends becoming more aware utilizing certain methods, like music, movements, and group work, to bring about enlightenment (because people walk around in a "waking sleep" state). And, according to wikipedia, he believes we should do these things to tap into our conscience which lies within our unconscious mind, so that we live a better and holier life. (if i have it right)


    So, if humans' brains are mostly (99%?) untapped unconsciousness, and our conscience lies within it, as Gurdjieff asserts, are there more specific ways, than his one-size-fits-all methodology, based on type or function preference, that we can tap into our conscience, do you think?

    For example, I get "insight" (Gurdjieff's goal) after I've contemplated something a while, studied and pondered about it, looped it around a bit, then slept on it. Other Ni's I've heard do this as well. I also get insight while I'm exercising aerobically. I also do get insight, or, perhaps more accurately, clarity or surity, about something after I've listened to music a while and gotten lost in it, or danced. So perhaps there is something to it. However, in considering this, those are all Se type activities, and Se is my most undifferentiated function....which lies mostly in my unconsciousness.

    I'm just wondering if an Se/Ti user would more likely tap into their conscience doing something that takes them into their undifferentiated functions as well, like some Ni/Fe delving....And so on with other types. Is an INTP more likely to get 'insight' if he utilizes some Si/Fe activity, as these might lie more securely in the unconsciousness. Not sure what those activities are off the top of my head....

    This is a random thought but your comments on Gurdjieff and the prodding of the unconscious raised these questions for me....Sorry if this is a major derail.




    Or does just everyone get in touch with their unconscious most easily through his teachings of movement, music, and group work?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #87
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    @AphroditeGoneAwry Undifferentiated functions lie outside the context of Gurdjieff's system, so you're straying into speculative territory. I don't see him talking about the unconscious much. That concept is part of modern psychology, and as Western science I'm sure that Gurdjieff would reject it. Conscience, yes, that is something all or most of us possess innately (even if it starts to develop soon after birth, that is close enough to being innate.) It constitutes a source of right and wrong notions that do not require being fed by any external instruction ('thou shalt not,' etc.), only being made conscious of this innate content as an internal source of wisdom we all share and can all freely tap into.

    I don't believe Gurdjieff was some kind of god, as some do, so I feel free to question his idea that group work is required to make spiritual progress. Having to travel to join a school somewhere seems very limiting. And being a Gurdjieff student costs a lot of money. His theory is that if you don't have a lot of money to spend, then you're not worth bothering with as a person: if you don't have the discipline to earn and save the large sums required, then you won't have the discipline to survive his rigorous training method. This seems very harsh and unfair to me, but it's perhaps true for some or most. It's a good way to keep out the riff-raff, I'll admit.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #88
    Member Rim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    when you look at them a little deeper, that have a lot in common with each other

    8s and FPs both
    - a strong, visceral response to injustice <--typical type 6 reactiveness not just 8 does this
    - insist on being independent
    - become extremely pissed if you try to control them <-again type 6 reactive side, we hate to be controlled
    - are wild and free spirited and disdain rules and being expected to be "appropriate" <--not really, more cp 6 again
    - strong disliking for social expectation <-- this depends on the individual, cp 6 is usually like this.
    - solid and resilient (FPs to social conditioning and moral adversity; 8s to everything)
    - both tend to have protective personalities (though the 8 is likely to be a little more so right off the bat while most FPs tend to wait a little longer to step in) <--this is again an example of being reactive while an 8 is constantly actively engaged in being independent.
    - value truth over tact (FPs often value tact and saying things in a nice way when possible, but not at the expense of truth)
    - both have beliefs and/or preferences that they will not compromise on under any circumstances <-- other types do this as well it is not 8 exclusive.
    - both insist on doing things "their way"

    I don't see how being an FP 8 seems to contradictory to some people. their motivations are extremely similar
    Most all of this describes type 6 and not 8. Type 8 is more along the lines of Fe - Te, most if not all 8s are Judgers.

    A lot of counter phobic 6-es, 7w8s, 9w8s and some 2s mistype as 8. What counts in the enneagram are motivations for behavior and not the behavior itself.

    Most people confuse counter phobic 6 defensive-reactive response to threats as type 8 behavior. The most important thing to keep in mind when trying to make the distinction is that type 8 is not reactive in such a manner. An 8 will be actively aggressive "no bullshit" and not defensively reactive.

    Type 6 reactive is defensive in nature and you can see the distress, the anger is mental.

    Type 8 reactive is aggressive, more controlled and composed, solid.
    Enneagram: | 6w7 cp - 4w5 - 1w2 Sp/Sx/So | The Philosopher King

    Supine - Melancholic
    Socionics: IEE-3Ne

  9. #89
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    Most all of this describes type 6 and not 8. Type 8 is more along the lines of Fe - Te, most if not all 8s are Judgers.

    A lot of counter phobic 6-es, 7w8s, 9w8s and some 2s mistype as 8. What counts in the enneagram are motivations for behavior and not the behavior itself.
    I'm talking about similarities, not mistypings
    Edit: actually, 8s are reactive. 4, 6 and 8 make up the reactive triad.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  10. #90
    Member Rim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm talking about similarities, not mistypings
    Edit: actually, 8s are reactive. 4, 6 and 8 make up the reactive triad.
    Oh you were on, sry I haven't finished editing it fully.

    Well FPs defend their values and that is the source of the reactive behavior.

    8s defend common sense, Fe and Te values. It doesn't have to be personal. If you get in the way of progress, that will piss an 8 off.

    ^^ I post half way through :\ to avoid loss of written material and then edit it for another 10 minutes or so double checking sources and making it crisp clear. You are right 4, 6, 8 is the reactive triad, but there is a difference in the "why" (aka motivation).

    O.o either that or I have an 8 in the tritype :\ but that can't be because I relate a lot to type 9. I have never seen an FP which was an 8 and not some other type thinking they are an 8.
    Enneagram: | 6w7 cp - 4w5 - 1w2 Sp/Sx/So | The Philosopher King

    Supine - Melancholic
    Socionics: IEE-3Ne

Similar Threads

  1. Which 24 Character Are You and More? (BuddyTV)
    By Mondo in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-15-2014, 04:22 PM
  2. [INTJ] intj girls: where are you and how do i get you?
    By sketcheasy in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 08-09-2008, 01:34 AM
  3. [NF] Communicating between Fe and Fi
    By heart in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 132
    Last Post: 05-29-2008, 02:51 AM
  4. Are beginnings and endings necessary?
    By nightning in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-27-2008, 02:30 AM
  5. Masochism and Fi
    By SolitaryWalker in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-23-2007, 05:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO