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  1. #61
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The Enneagram is about spiritual enlightenment, not really self-actualization which is a Western psychological term (Maslow). We know the MBTI is definitely of Occidental European origin. But the Enneagram came out of Russia with it's highly mystical cultural tradition (circa early 1900s). Once you delve into The Fourth Way in any depth, you find that the Enneagram came from some really weird stuff.
    Russia is prolly one of the states in the world who is secularized the most. Russian are not unknown for their high education and intellectual capabilities, I think you are doing them a bit unfair if you talk their culture down to mystery.

    Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Russia is prolly one of the states in the world who is secularized the most. Russian are not unknown for their high education and intellectual capabilities, I think you are doing them a bit unfair if you talk their culture down to mystery.

    Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.
    I did say circa early 1900s, parenthetically perhaps. But that is the relevant historical context. And even then, I'm not saying that G.I. Gurdjieff, the founder of the Fourth Way, wasn't a very intellectual person. He was obviously highly capable in that realm.

    I agree however that Russian culture shouldn't be oversimplified, in that it has many elements.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Fourth way ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #64
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The Enneagram is about spiritual enlightenment, not really self-actualization which is a Western psychological term (Maslow). We know the MBTI is definitely of Occidental European origin. But the Enneagram came out of Russia with it's highly mystical cultural tradition (circa early 1900s). Once you delve into The Fourth Way in any depth, you find that the Enneagram came from some really weird stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Religion and mysticism are not the same thing.
    Quite frankly, it's all cultish nonsense to me whether religion or mysticism. Enneagram was based on far more than you've stated. It has both religious and mysticism roots that span more than Occidental Europe. I also reject the mysticism aspects of Jung's works.

    This doesn't mean that there aren't some excellent insights into human behaviours, as well as insights into the human psyche that are worth investigating and considering. These are the areas that appeal to me. If I had to pick one over the other, MBTI/Jungian Cognitive functions would be my preference since it's not intended to coerce you into spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.
    G.I. Gurdjieff taught about various types of men. Here is the barest kernel of his thinking from his Wikipedia biography:

    "Gurdjieff argued that many of the existing forms of religious and spiritual tradition on Earth had lost connection with their original meaning and vitality and so could no longer serve humanity in the way that had been intended at their inception. As a result humans were failing to realize the truths of ancient teachings and were instead becoming more and more like automatons, susceptible to control from outside and increasingly capable of otherwise unthinkable acts of mass psychosis such as the 1914-18 war. At best, the various surviving sects and schools could only provide a one-sided development which did not result in a fully integrated human being. According to Gurdjieff, only one dimension of the three dimensions of the person - namely, either the emotions, or the physical body or the mind - tends to develop in such schools and sects..."

    Notice already we have the three Enneagram centers (or "triads"), emotional, physical, and mental - although he didn't call them that. These correlate with the three spiritual types of men: the yogi, the monk, and the fakir. Each of these types highly develops one specific faculty to a great extent, while the other two faculties go fallow. But he argues in his books that they develop their abilities without full knowledge of what they are doing. A yogi is capable of great physical feats, but it is more like self-hypnosis, it occurs without full understanding of the underlying psychic processes involved. The Fourth Way encompasses all three, it seeks a spiritual harmony, and tries to accomplish this without the necessity of leaving the world and entering some kind of monastic existence. Continuing with one's normal life is very important to walking the path of spiritual harmony.

    Today we use the Enneagram to ponder our own navels, but this only entrenches us deeper in personality and this has nothing to do with the spiritual core of our being.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #66
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Quite frankly, it's all cultish nonsense to me whether religion or mysticism. Enneagram was based on far more than you've stated. It has both religious and mysticism roots that span more than Occidental Europe. I also reject the mysticism aspects of Jung's works.

    This doesn't mean that there aren't some excellent insights into human behaviours, as well as insights into the human psyche that are worth investigating and considering. These are the areas that appeal to me. If I had to pick one over the other, MBTI/Jungian Cognitive functions would be my preference since it's not intended to coerce you into spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
    The spiritual mumbo-jumbo basically boils down to freeing oneself from an automaton-like existence.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #67
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    G.I. Gurdjieff taught about various types of men. Here is the barest kernel of his thinking from his Wikipedia biography:

    "Gurdjieff argued that many of the existing forms of religious and spiritual tradition on Earth had lost connection with their original meaning and vitality and so could no longer serve humanity in the way that had been intended at their inception. As a result humans were failing to realize the truths of ancient teachings and were instead becoming more and more like automatons, susceptible to control from outside and increasingly capable of otherwise unthinkable acts of mass psychosis such as the 1914-18 war. At best, the various surviving sects and schools could only provide a one-sided development which did not result in a fully integrated human being. According to Gurdjieff, only one dimension of the three dimensions of the person - namely, either the emotions, or the physical body or the mind - tends to develop in such schools and sects..."

    Notice already we have the three Enneagram centers (or "triads"), emotional, physical, and mental - although he didn't call them that. These correlate with the three spiritual types of men: the yogi, the monk, and the fakir. Each of these types highly develops one specific faculty to a great extent, while the other two faculties go fallow. But he argues in his books that they develop their abilities without full knowledge of what they are doing. A yogi is capable of great physical feats, but it is more like self-hypnosis, it occurs without full understanding of the underlying psychic processes involved. The Fourth Way encompasses all three, it seeks a spiritual harmony, and tries to accomplish this without the necessity of leaving the world and entering some kind of monastic existence. Continuing with one's normal life is very important to walking the path of spiritual harmony.

    Today we use the Enneagram to ponder our own navels, but this only entrenches us deeper in personality and this has nothing to do with the spiritual core of our being.
    Sounds intresting, I'll read up on it. I basically like all wisdoms who consider humanity in distinct elements with the conclusion that the integration of all parts or the acceptance is key. The word spiritual and mystical set me off.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #68
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Sounds intresting, I'll read up on it. I basically like all wisdoms who consider humanity in distinct elements with the conclusion that the integration of all parts or the acceptance is key. The word spiritual and mystical set me off.
    I did call them the three "spiritual" types of men, so it gets confusing when terms aren't properly defined. What Gurdjieff means by "spiritual" is completely different from that of the faithful Monk who prays to God but doesn't understand why.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #69
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The spiritual mumbo-jumbo basically boils down to freeing oneself from an automaton-like existence.
    It's only automaton if you perceive it as such. My beliefs surround holistic humanity, which includes being attached to body and essence. We are the apex predator, we are animals.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    It's easy to see the wisdom in Gurdjieff's teachings. To say that man is an automaton points to the simple fact that, as adults, we develop habits that are difficult to break, and structured routines that begin to lose their meaning as the decades go by. This part isn't a mystery. And we have seen that organized religions like to keep their followers in the dark about the esoterica, releasing to them an exoterica which may or may not reflect the church's true doctrines. So the religious pray and follow rituals which they do not understand but nevertheless keep them firmly within their shallow comfort zones. Mother Church is hardly more than returning to the womb for these types. So I think Gurdjieff has made many valuable social observations. But the mysticism (the octaves and all that) is very difficult to master.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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