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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    Fi and Te are two sides of the same coin. Both are related to the gut instinct too. So yeah, there is definitely a connection.
    Let's start out by contrasting from a higher level. If the coin is the psyche, then MBTI and enneagram appear to approach the psyche from different sides of the same coin: MBTI is mainly concerning the conscious part of the psyche, and enneagram is concerning the unconscious (aka, instincts).

    All enneatypes concern instincts:

    Heart or emotional instinct: 2, 3, 4
    Head or intellectual instinct: 5, 6, 7
    Gut or physical instinct: 8, 9, 1

    Let's look at your comment about Fi and Te being on the same coin. Fi and Te are not always on the same coin. That statement only makes sense to me if you're talking about the coin being an IFP. We could contrast the IFP archetypes (Fi-dom self vs. Te-dom shadow) or we could contrast the default pattern of cognitive behavior for the IFP (Fi-dom vs. Te-inf). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    Fi and Te are two sides of the same coin. Both are related to the gut instinct too.
    As far as I understand, Fi has nothing to do with gut (aka, physical) instincts when we're talking about MBTI. Nor is Fi directly related to a physical instinct function (i.e., Se) [where enneatype 8 'power' is concerned]; at least not that I can fathom at the moment. However, Te is! And here's an example of why: ENTJ's have tertiary Se, which they orient with to physically intimidate people for power, to get the control back when socially defined expectations are failing them. In that case, yes, they orient with their tertiary Se, which I understand ENTJ's describe as going with their "gut instincts".

    It might make sense to tie an Fi-dom ISFP with enneatype 9 because their secondary function is Se, but I wouldn't think any Fi-dom would fit enneatype 8 [Fi-Se combo of functional attitudes don't fit the enneatype 8 description; at all]. As I've tried to explore briefly in this post, I'm not finding a logical tie between 8 and Fi (specifically) without getting creative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    No. Fi is about individual values and Te is used as the means to an end.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    8 would seem to best fit ETJ types
    Agreed! Type 8 is concerning power and physical instincts, which describes the default pattern of cognitive function for the ETJ's more than any other type, in my opinion.

  2. #42
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychological Types by Jung
    In a general way, the compensating attitude of the unconscious finds expression in the process of psychic equilibrium. A normal extraverted attitude does not, of course, mean that the individual behaves invariably in accordance with the extraverted schema. Even in the same individual many psychological happenings may be observed, in which the mechanism of introversion is concerned. A habitus can be called extraverted only when the mechanism of extraversion predominates. In such a case the most highly differentiated function has a constantly extraverted application, while the inferior functions are found in the service of introversion, i.e. the more valued function, because the more conscious, is more completely subordinated to conscious control and purpose, whilst the less conscious, in other words, the partly unconscious inferior functions are subjected to conscious free choice in a much smaller degree.

    The superior function is always the expression of the conscious personality, its aim, its will, and its achievement, whilst the inferior functions belong to the things that happen to one. Not that they merely beget blunders, e.g. lapsus linguae or lapsus calami, but they may also breed half or three-quarter resolves, since the inferior functions also possess a slight degree of consciousness. The extraverted feeling type is a classical example of this, for he enjoys an excellent feeling rapport with his entourage, yet occasionally opinions of an incomparable tactlessness [p. 427] will just happen to him. These opinions have their source in his inferior and subconscious thinking, which is only partly subject to control and is insufficiently related to the object ; to a large extent, therefore, it can operate without consideration or responsibility.

    In the extraverted attitude the inferior functions always reveal a highly subjective determination with pronounced egocentricity and personal bias, thus demonstrating their close connection with the unconscious. Through their agency the unconscious is continually coming to light. On no account should we imagine that the unconscious lies permanently buried under so many overlying strata that it can only be uncovered, so to speak, by a laborious process of excavation. On the contrary, there is a constant influx of the unconscious into the conscious psychological process; at times this reaches such a pitch that the observer can decide only with difficulty which character-traits are to be ascribed to the conscious, and which to the unconscious personality. This difficulty occurs mainly with persons whose habit of expression errs rather on the side of profuseness. Naturally it depends very largely also upon the attitude of the observer, whether he lays hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of a personality. Speaking generally a judging observer will tend to seize the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be influenced more by the unconscious character, since judgement is chiefly interested in the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception tends to register the mere happening. But in so far as we apply perception and judgment in equal measure, it may easily happen that a personality appears to us as both introverted and extraverted, so that we cannot at once decide to which attitude the superior function belongs. In such cases only a thorough analysis of the function qualities can help us to a sound opinion. During the analysis we must observe which [p. 428] function is placed under the control and motivation of consciousness, and which functions have an accidental and spontaneous character. The former is always more highly differentiated than the latter, which also possess many infantile and primitive qualities. Occasionally the former function gives the impression of normality, while the latter have something abnormal or pathological about them.
    Jung's writings speak for themselves.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Let's look at your comment about Fi and Te being on the same coin. Fi and Te are not always on the same coin. That statement only makes sense to me if you're talking about the coin being an IFP. We could contrast the IFP archetypes (Fi-dom self vs. Te-dom shadow) or we could contrast the default pattern of cognitive behavior for the IFP (Fi-dom vs. Te-inf). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    The coin is the psyche. Everyone one "has" every function in his/her brain. Every conscious Fi user is a conscious Te user and every unconscious Te user is an unconscious Fi user. Dominance is not the point of what I'm talking about. Dominance only talks about how much of a cognitive function you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    As far as I understand, Fi has nothing to do with gut (aka, physical) instincts when we're talking about MBTI. Nor is Fi directly related to a physical instinct function (i.e., Se); at least not that I can fathom at the moment. However, Te is! And here's an example of why: ENTJ's have tertiary Se, which they orient with to physically intimidate people for power, to get the control back when socially defined expectations are failing them. In that case, yes, they orient with their tertiary Se, which I understand ENTJ's describe as going with their "gut instincts".

    Were you talking about Fi in terms of how you relate it to enneagram? If that's the case, then it might make sense to tie an Fi-dom ISFP with enneatype 9 because their secondary function is Se, but I wouldn't think any Fi-dom would fit enneatype 8. As I've tried to explore briefly in this post, I'm not finding a logical tie between 8 and Fi (specifically) without getting creative.
    Lots of Fi-doms can be 8s. There are INFPs enneagram 8. I'm an ENFP 9w8. lots of Fi-doms are also 9s. And that's the whole point...the correlations being made between enneagram and MBTI are too superficial.

    The number of FP males enneagram 8 is not at all negligible. The gut instinct is not just a physical thing. It relates to anger specifically. If you are and FP male, life gives you plenty of reasons to be angry from a very early age.This too is an oversimplification....what I'm getting at is that cognition and motivation are related but not in a clear cut way. There are cultural phenomenons that deeply affect all of this too. Your sex plays a part too.

    This forum alone should be proof enough that enneagram and MBTI don't always neatly correlate. One thing to bear in mind is that these models are just that, models. Expecting perfect internal coherence within one model is one thing....but when you superimpose two models things change.

    Which is not to say there is no relation between the two. Obviously there is, it's the psyche. What I'm talking about is not so much theory as it is practice. There are very weird enneagram+mbti combinations that aren't neatly accounted for with Te = 8, Pe = 7, 1 = J etc etc

    I've met ENFPs that were 7s, 4s, 3s, 2s and even 9w1s and can tell you any in-depth implication made from knowing the cognitive functions alone is not gonna tell you how they conduct their lives. (ENFPs are just an example).

    The instincts are also something that can change throughout life. Meditation alone, can have a tremendous effect on your head, gut, and heart (probably good to remember enneagram always had spiritual aspirations, the point being integrating into a "whole" [holy] person).

    The map is not the territory.

    8 assert their presence. They can do it with Te or Se or they can voice Fi or whatever else....none of the functions accounts for other human abilities like talking, raising one's voice etc...

  4. #44
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I do see the similarities Elfboy. However, ultimately 8s are about asserting themselves on their environment, whereas FPs are about adjusting to it. I think to find a EXFP 8 would be a struggle, although it's not inconceivable. A IXFP 8 is incongruent combination to me - I would be inclined to think they are mistyped in one way or another.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  5. #45
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I do see the similarities Elfboy. However, ultimately 8s are about asserting themselves on their environment, whereas FPs are about adjusting to it. I think to find a EXFP 8 would be a struggle, although it's not inconceivable. A IXFP 8 is incongruent combination to me - I would be inclined to think they are mistyped in one way or another.
    Exactly!! ENFPs do the morphing thing, whether it's to align with their environments or to the person they wish they were.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Exactly!! ENFPs do the morphing thing, whether it's to align with their environments or to the person they wish they were.
    That is such crap. Fi is not about adjusting to environment at all. If anything it's the complete opposite. Let's non confuse a non-assertive Fi user with all Fi-users.

    It's like saying all 8s are aggressive in the way they says things.

    Aggression and assertion are not the same thing.

  7. #47
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    ^^ I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Exactly!! ENFPs do the morphing thing, whether it's to align with their environments or to the person they wish they were.
    In that light I'ld say an enfp 8 is more likely than an entp 8
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #48
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Of the ENFP 8's on this site that I've known since joining, they've all set off my bullshit meter. Don't know you @Moiety, well enough to say either way. Consider CP6.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Of the ENFP 8's on this site that I've known since joining, they've all set off my bullshit meter. Don't know you @Moiety, well enough to say either way. Consider CP6.
    Lol That's not the point really. I know my type : 9w8 (strong 6 tendencies to be sure). I know I can't prove you guys of what I'm saying, because we each have our own understanding of both systems and I have no evidence (then again, neither does anyone else). I'm just posting to balance things out because I think there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the enneagram in particular.

    I remember hearing people tell me I couldn't be an 8, or that my Fi had to be less strong than my Ne....and I've seen all kinds of unscientific and, more importantly, irrational views concerning people that don't neatly fit into the systems.

    My own experience tells me that these two models are great helpers in mapping the psyche but that there are phenomenons (namely self-actualization and life experiences and instinctual predispositions and traumas) that heavily factor into all of this that are mostly NOT accounted for. I just dislike seeing so much misinformation going on, but I guess not much can be done. Oversimplification is the one thing standing in the way of TRULY getting something out of these systems.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would not compare Fi and 8's except in the area of gut instinct, I suppose...

    But 8 is typically describing external behavior rather than internal processing (aka Ji) -- it is predominately a "moving against" enneagram type and is recognized/thought of in those terms, a type where growth involves learning restraint. When you say Fi AKA Fi doms, that would be the ISFP and the INFP, and neither is typically type 8 because their external working style is SO different than type 8 aggression/assertion. You're more likely to see that behavior from Extroverted mbti types.

    The type with the most intersection between Fi and 8 would probably be the ENFP, which is Fi-secondary but shows a lot of "moving against" external behavior. Other likely 8's probably Te primaries and the ESTP.
    I wish more people would learn that when they say Fi they mean Fi-dom, as with any other function.

    I think Elfboy is just noticing the fact that Ji (generally Fi and Ti) are, in ancient Greek terms, considered to be Cholerics. But in modern times this labeling has changed. So it's not like he hasn't observed something important, it's only that he's implicitly siding with Galen the Physician.
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