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  1. #91
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    Well FPs defend their values and that is the source of the reactive behavior.
    yes, though how reactive it is varies. personally I don't consider myself very reactive, though I'm certainly responsive in that I let people know what I think of them, their opinions and their actions.

    8s defend common sense, Fe and Te values. It doesn't have to be personal. If you get in the way of progress, that will piss an 8 off.
    8s defend their personal space and anything they feel they should have control over. depending on the beliefs of the 8, this can vary tremendously.
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  2. #92
    Member Rim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    yes, though how reactive it is varies. personally I don't consider myself very reactive, though I'm certainly responsive in that I let people know what I think of them, their opinions and their actions.


    8s defend their personal space and anything they feel they should have control over. depending on the beliefs of the 8, this can vary tremendously.
    here I found something that makes the proper difference:

    Sixes and Eights are aggressive, although only the Eight is an entirely aggressive personality. Sixes react both to their fears and to other people and constantly oscillate from one state to another, from Level to Level. They are ambivalent and passive-aggressive, evasive, and contradictory. In contrast, Eights have solid egos and formidable wills; they keep pushing others until they get them what they want. There is little softness in Eights and even less tendency to comply with the wishes of anyone else. They have no desire to be liked or to ingratiate themselves with others. Rather than look to others for protection, Eights offer protection (patronage) in return for hard work and loyalty.
    ^^ imo FPs are not blunt and independent enough to be 8s, having one in the tritype or as a wing is quite possible thou. Pure 8 is more TJ.

    EDIT2: x.x or just don't mind me...I'm in "devil's advocate" mode right now.
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  3. #93
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    here I found something that makes the proper difference:
    that pretty much sums it up. 6's reactive tendencies come more from volatility, fear and being thrown off guard; 8s reactive tendencies come from anger and a desire to destroy danger and obstacles. 8s as a whole are less reactive because their behavior is more predictable to themselves. 6s are so unpredictable that they themselves often don't know how they will react; 8s on the other hand know that if someone hits them, they will hit back, and as a result they're pretty much prepared for it 24/7.

    the 8 is the predator; the cp 6 is more like an herbivore who will fight and flail like hell if attacked, but lacks the inherent aggression of a carnivore. once the threat is removed, a 6 will generally return to their normal self. 8s on the other hand scarcely change. extreme confrontation and even physical violence are often not a very big deal to them.
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  4. #94
    Member Rim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    that pretty much sums it up. 6's reactive tendencies come more from volatility, fear and being thrown off guard; 8s reactive tendencies come from anger and a desire to destroy danger and obstacles. 8s as a whole are less reactive because their behavior is more predictable to themselves. 6s are so unpredictable that they themselves often don't know how they will react; 8s on the other hand know that if someone hits them, they will hit back, and as a result they're pretty much prepared for it 24/7.

    the 8 is the predator; the cp 6 is more like an herbivore who will fight and flail like hell if attacked, but lacks the inherent aggression of a carnivore. once the threat is removed, a 6 will generally return to their normal self. 8s on the other hand scarcely change. extreme confrontation and even physical violence are often not a very big deal to them.
    As a 6 I'm wary and afraid I'll end up doing this when I get reactive-defensive, so yes that is correct. I think that is what i wanted to get across in my initial first post, just couldn't express it properly.
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  5. #95
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    As a 6 I'm wary and afraid I'll end up doing this when I get reactive-defensive, so yes that is correct. I think that is what i wanted to get across in my initial first post, just couldn't express it properly.
    you expressed it fine, I just added 2-3 things and rephrased the quote you gave me a bit to make sure I got what you were saying. a lot of the things I mentioned in the OP could apply either to 6s or 8s
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  6. #96
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    This is getting off track. Galen described the Choleric type in terms of what we today would call schizothymic. Obviously, Galen had no concept of schizothymia, or cyclothymia.
    But schizothymia is a "temperament" only in the modernly accepted sense of the word (Thomas and Chess theory, the nine characteristics), not in the sense of "the four temperaments". Both it and cyclothymia are related to disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar, respectively) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizothymia so that has nothing to do with the Choleric temperament.
    For Galen, being slow to respond did not matter in his equation. It's the response that mattered.
    I don't quite understand what you're saying. Everyone "responds"; fast or slow delay, and long or short sustain, were what distinguished the four temperaments. Again, it has nothing to do with the modern disorder concepts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    that pretty much sums it up. 6's reactive tendencies come more from volatility, fear and being thrown off guard; 8s reactive tendencies come from anger and a desire to destroy danger and obstacles. 8s as a whole are less reactive because their behavior is more predictable to themselves. 6s are so unpredictable that they themselves often don't know how they will react; 8s on the other hand know that if someone hits them, they will hit back, and as a result they're pretty much prepared for it 24/7.

    the 8 is the predator; the cp 6 is more like an herbivore who will fight and flail like hell if attacked, but lacks the inherent aggression of a carnivore. once the threat is removed, a 6 will generally return to their normal self. 8s on the other hand scarcely change. extreme confrontation and even physical violence are often not a very big deal to them.
    8 is Choleric, 6 is Supine (often highlighting the more reactive side of it).
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  7. #97
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But schizothymia is a "temperament" only in the modernly accepted sense of the word (Thomas and Chess theory, the nine characteristics), not in the sense of "the four temperaments". Both it and cyclothymia are related to disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar, respectively) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizothymia so that has nothing to do with the Choleric temperament.
    I don't quite understand what you're saying. Everyone "responds"; fast or slow delay, and long or short sustain, were what distinguished the four temperaments. Again, it has nothing to do with the modern disorder concepts.
    8 is Choleric, 6 is Supine (often highlighting the more reactive side of it).
    cp 6s (especially 6w7 Sx) can be choleric too, but 8 pretty much defines choleric
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  8. #98
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So, if humans' brains are mostly (99%?) untapped unconsciousness, and our conscience lies within it, as Gurdjieff asserts, are there more specific ways, than his one-size-fits-all methodology, based on type or function preference, that we can tap into our conscience, do you think?


    I'm gonna throw in my two cents even though this wasn't directed at me. IMO Gurdjieff was a bit of a nut, an eccentric. Dancing and music? Only in the off-chance they might induce a state of flow in the practitioner could I see them having any merit. Meditation from my experience is the fastest and simplest way of bringing consciousness into our unconscious psyche. Enneagram is a good aid for personal growth but one has to take its history with a grain of salt.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But schizothymia is a "temperament" only in the modernly accepted sense of the word (Thomas and Chess theory, the nine characteristics), not in the sense of "the four temperaments".
    Then tell the author of this page http://www.ptypes.com/temperaments.html - remember that one? You think we can't mix ancient and modern? Think again. At the very least, we can find the similarities, as Elfboy did in the OP with type 8 and Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Both it and cyclothymia are related to disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar, respectively) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizothymia so that has nothing to do with the Choleric temperament.
    Yet somehow the chart at that other page locates "scientist" and "dialectical" in the same column as "choleric" under the general heading "Schizothymic." There is a reason for this which you are neglecting. It has to do with Galen's theory of temperaments which does not match the modern version of "choleric." And it has to do with Elfboy's OP which points to certain similarities between type 8s, who are choleric in the modern sense, and Fi's, who are choleric in the ancient, Galenic sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I don't quite understand what you're saying. Everyone "responds"; fast or slow delay, and long or short sustain, were what distinguished the four temperaments. Again, it has nothing to do with the modern disorder concepts.
    Galen's four temperaments? Response time had nothing to do with it, that is the modern version.
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  10. #100
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    I'm gonna throw in my two cents even though this wasn't directed at me. IMO Gurdjieff was a bit of a nut, an eccentric. Dancing and music? Only in the off-chance they might induce a state of flow in the practitioner could I see them having any merit. Meditation from my experience is the fastest and simplest way of bringing consciousness into our unconscious psyche. Enneagram is a good aid for personal growth but one has to take its history with a grain of salt.

    But meditation for me doesn't do anything really, except perhaps make me feel very relaxed---or irritated. Unless it's meditation involving an Se/Ti activity, as I get with knitting, then it can be very meditative and conscience provoking...

    If you feel traditional meditation taps into your conscience, I wonder what type you are. I get an INTP vibe off your avvy and response, etc. And/or if you know your most undifferentiated functions.
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