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  1. #1
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Default Tackling 5s fixation

    Fixation: Stinginess [Retention]*

    Stinginess refers to the ego mind's tendency to hold onto experiences and information in an effort to build up knowledge and power and to maintain a familiar orientation with reality. It is as if the mind were stockpiling resources to prepare for some future catastrophe. Thus, Fives spend their time gathering information, skills, and resources to "build themselves up," as if they were creating a separate space in which to prepare themselves to re-enter reality.

    The problem is that identifying with the mind this way detaches us from the support of our Being and from feeling connected with the world. Further, if Fives are continually thinking that they need more and more information or skill before they can really live, it is going to be very difficult to get their lives started, and it is also going to be frightening to give, to be generous with one's self. It is as if Fives are thinking "There is not enough of me even for me. If others want things from me, there won't be anything left. I need time to build myself up." However, no amount of studying, learning, or hoarding makes them feel any more ready to deal with their lives.
    I keep seeing this everywhere, I used to feel that time would have to come to a complete halt just so that I could learn everything, and I was almost starting to worry about it. As it obviously turns out, that's the wrong way to go.

    I don't get how I'm supposed to "deal with life"? What is this idea of living and why is it better than my own?

    Should I be trying to get myself away from the imaginary? There's no distinct line between real and imaginary, there are some things that are completely imaginary like fantasy books, video games, and there are slightly more practical things like guitar, mechanics, martial arts, and then there's stuff that people call real, but seems equally unimportant. So many people can spend hours just texting.

    What the hell counts as reality? A job? I wont have that until I complete University. Friends? I was almost exactly like a 9 (too much time spent with them, could never get time to myself etc.) until I isolated myself to get better at uni... I'm trying to turn that around, but I get anxious now and feel that it will take to much energy, I can handle that. Every day things? Like bills, cleaning, sleeping, eating... is that it?
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  2. #2
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Give me a call when you have found a solution.

    Right now all I can tell you is that I empathize. Both with the sensation that "real life" hasn't started yet (I'm 31, graduated with the equivalent of a masters degree, have been comfortably getting by as a freelancer for several years now, live on my own, have a healthy relationship with a loving boyfriend and responsibly take care of two pets on top of that - and still I feel like a little girl who is just weasling her way through the world, not really prepared for the life "out there", one of these days it will come out and everything will fall apart) and the paralyzing awareness that your skills just aren't up to scratch.

    I have trouble drawing a stick figure without noticing how it isn't Rembrandt and thinking how I should really study art until I basically am Rembrandt before I can even think about drawing again. Every line on the paper is a bitter reminder of the discrepency between the actual skills and the desired skills. The same goes for all other forms of artistic expression, academic fields of knowledge and even things I really should know a lot about...like my profession and several long time interests.

    It is never good enough. It is always work in progress.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  3. #3
    Glycerine
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    Oh the the joys of "analysis paralysis".... I have been trying to find something that people call "passion" to help with this sort of dilemma. I also considered "mindfulness" but that sounds exhausting. lol The idea of combining the role of "detached observer" and being engaged in the present moment/environment w/ no judgements.

  4. #4
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Give me a call when you have found a solution.

    Right now all I can tell you is that I empathize. Both with the sensation that "real life" hasn't started yet (I'm 31, graduated with the equivalent of a masters degree, have been comfortably getting by as a freelancer for several years now, live on my own, have a healthy relationship with a loving boyfriend and responsibly take care of two pets on top of that - and still I feel like a little girl who is just weasling her way through the world, not really prepared for the life "out there", one of these days it will come out and everything will fall apart) and the paralyzing awareness that your skills just aren't up to scratch.

    I have trouble drawing a stick figure without noticing how it isn't Rembrandt and thinking how I should really study art until I basically am Rembrandt before I can even think about drawing again. Every line on the paper is a bitter reminder of the discrepency between the actual skills and the desired skills. The same goes for all other forms of artistic expression, academic fields of knowledge and even things I really should know a lot about...like my profession and several long time interests.

    It is never good enough. It is always work in progress.
    hmmm, that doesn't really fill me with hope... I think maybe it means that you should not just sit back and learn and that you actually need to use your skills in real life situations. Like with guitar, I play it a bit, I could dream of playing for people, but I could never do it, every time I think of it, all I want to do is practice because it's not perfect, and it's only good enough for everyone else to hear if it's perfect.

    And maybe there's also a second aspect, because we get caught up in our minds, you've got to learn when to snap out of that and face the reality that's gnawing at your skin. Like right now, I should stop thinking and get ready for bed, but that's always easier said than done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Oh the the joys of "analysis paralysis".... I have been trying to find something that people call "passion" to help with this sort of dilemma. I also considered "mindfulness" but that sounds exhausting. lol The idea of combining the role of "detached observer" and being engaged in the present moment/environment w/ no judgements.
    Surely that's impossible to do simultaneously, I guess that because 5s default to being observers, just throwing yourself into positions of control and action before other people get a chance to shove you out the way and take over would be enough to balance you out? Though, I did hear that some fives will become active as much as they can, and then take a step back into observer mode, then re-engage.

    My biggest annoyance is that I try to do something practical and get pushed out the way unless I'm on my own, which makes me want to isolate myself more.
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  5. #5
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    hmmm, that doesn't really fill me with hope... I think maybe it means that you should not just sit back and learn and that you actually need to use your skills in real life situations. Like with guitar, I play it a bit, I could dream of playing for people, but I could never do it, every time I think of it, all I want to do is practice because it's not perfect, and it's only good enough for everyone else to hear if it's perfect.

    And maybe there's also a second aspect, because we get caught up in our minds, you've got to learn when to snap out of that and face the reality that's gnawing at your skin. Like right now, I should stop thinking and get ready for bed, but that's always easier said than done.



    Surely that's impossible to do simultaneously, I guess that because 5s default to being observers, just throwing yourself into positions of control and action before other people get a chance to shove you out the way and take over would be enough to balance you out? Though, I did hear that some fives will become active as much as they can, and then take a step back into observer mode, then re-engage.

    My biggest annoyance is that I try to do something practical and get pushed out the way unless I'm on my own, which makes me want to isolate myself more.
    I should clarify. There is a line of thinking that makes it seem possible to do both simultaneously. One is engaged in the present moment by just observing things, people around them, one's own emotions and thoughts but at the same time, the person is not making judgements or analyzing it... it's just what it is and being able to let things go. It's awareness (being engaged) and detachment all rolled into one shebang. However, for a five, I bet that would be next to impossible unless they are really focused. 5's tend to analyze everything and anything because of an overriding fear of not being competent or capable so being able to take that judgement piece out of the equation for a few minutes can give one clarity.

    EDIT: I am horrible at mindfulness but it does send me back into reality after a couple minutes. But then again I am a small extrovert.

  6. #6
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    I keep seeing this everywhere, I used to feel that time would have to come to a complete halt just so that I could learn everything, and I was almost starting to worry about it. As it obviously turns out, that's the wrong way to go.

    I don't get how I'm supposed to "deal with life"? What is this idea of living and why is it better than my own?

    Should I be trying to get myself away from the imaginary? There's no distinct line between real and imaginary, there are some things that are completely imaginary like fantasy books, video games, and there are slightly more practical things like guitar, mechanics, martial arts, and then there's stuff that people call real, but seems equally unimportant. So many people can spend hours just texting.

    What the hell counts as reality? A job? I wont have that until I complete University. Friends? I was almost exactly like a 9 (too much time spent with them, could never get time to myself etc.) until I isolated myself to get better at uni... I'm trying to turn that around, but I get anxious now and feel that it will take to much energy, I can handle that. Every day things? Like bills, cleaning, sleeping, eating... is that it?
    My experience:

    You have to replace that overwhelming feeling of invasion you get when you feel people's expectations placed upon you. And in my experience, it comes from a source of emotional strength.

    Learn to be receptive to life and love, instead of constantly holding it back. Actively reach out and place your stakes in the world emotionally. Suddenly, you have the strength to do anything, instead of reserving it for some things.

    In short: stop giving in to fear, because it will never go away - learn to stare it in the face instead of hiding. And stop making excuses for yourself as a result - you're going to end up believing them one day, I guaran-fucking-tee it.
    Hello

  7. #7
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    I was wondering what a 5 would need to do to grow, and I came up with this:

    - Establish a good sleep habit
    - Become proficient in important skills
    - Take care of their body
    - Connect with other people
    - Know when to snap back to reality and when to think
    - Become active and engaged in important activities

    This is just what I think I should be working on, I don't know how much that applies to other 5s.

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    In short: stop giving in to fear, because it will never go away - learn to stare it in the face instead of hiding. And stop making excuses for yourself as a result - you're going to end up believing them one day, I guaran-fucking-tee it.
    Thanks Vagrant, do you have any examples of these excuses?
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  8. #8
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    Thanks Vagrant, do you have any examples of these excuses?
    Speaking for myself, they typically revolved around "this is a waste of my time", or "I don't know how to do this".

    Bullshit it's a waste of your time, especially if someone's asking you for a favour - make time, give energy, think something of yourself.
    Of course you don't know how to do it, you haven't even bothered trying! Get some fucking swagger and jump in the deep end - you'll figure it out on the way.
    Hello

  9. #9
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9FBQ1O5F8k&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9FBQ1O5F8k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

    I think what you're struggling with is fundamentally the question of control... you think things are too wild & dangerous to deal with unless you're prepared for them. & I understand that, I struggle with that myself even though I'm an INFP 4. & the idea I always come back to is that life is inevitable.. kinda like Murphy's Law, life is that thing in Murphy's law that can go wrong & does go wrong. Life is that thing that happens without you noticing it happening. Look at how humanity fits into nature-- whenever people try to control the course of nature, like the balance of an ecosystem or something like that, it backfires & things end up even more out of control than in the beginning.

    I think a lot of people get overwhelmed by the significance of different things in life-- sex, relationships, friends, careers-- & get carried away to a place where they can't do anything particularly relating to those things, because all they can think about are the BIG THINGS, almost like they're archetypes. If that makes sense. Like 3000 years from now, none of what anyone today spends their life doing is going to seem meaningful-- people are gonna look back & not know what the fuck we were on about. But, to me, that's not a reason to disengage from the present, rather to engage it even more closely, because the details become important. Things that seem big & archetypal, they're built out of tiny little things. & it's only upon reflection that they become significant-- after you've thrown all caution to the wind & just gone out & done some shit. It isn't necessary to know everything about what you're doing, I don't believe.

    Maybe this is a split between 4 and 5 types. Sometimes I feel like the dividing line is one's attitude toward knowledge-- 4s are less concerned with knowing things. It's not that it's just a means to an end, but that it's always illusory in some way... how do you know for certain whether what you know is true, or if it is true then whether it's really worth knowing? Usually, I don't think it matters that much.

    Things I'm always telling myself:

    1) be more fearless
    2) be more carefree
    3) be more careFUL (as in prudent, doing the right thing for the present situation)
    4) be warmer (more engaged, less preoccupied w/ empty possibility)

    All of those things to me sum basically to "moving into life", whatever that really means... it's kind of like tilting a balance within yourself, away from one side toward the other side. Kinda weird.

    Dunno if you can relate to any of that... but hopefully something up there could help a little.
    RCUAI
    ---------
    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

  10. #10
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    One thing that really helped me out is accepting that fear will never go away - it's pointless to try and not be afraid, since you can easily achieve this by shrinking away from the world. So I never listen to people who say "don't be afraid", since I've been trying to do that my whole life!

    What's really important is recognising and accepting your place in the world, and taking responsibility for it - despite whatever misgivings you may have for being there. Choose to stand on shaky ground, and you suddenly become full of life and strength - and most importantly, people place their faith in you.
    Hello

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