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[Type 5] Tackling 5s fixation

Asterion

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Fixation: Stinginess [Retention]*

Stinginess refers to the ego mind's tendency to hold onto experiences and information in an effort to build up knowledge and power and to maintain a familiar orientation with reality. It is as if the mind were stockpiling resources to prepare for some future catastrophe. Thus, Fives spend their time gathering information, skills, and resources to "build themselves up," as if they were creating a separate space in which to prepare themselves to re-enter reality.

The problem is that identifying with the mind this way detaches us from the support of our Being and from feeling connected with the world. Further, if Fives are continually thinking that they need more and more information or skill before they can really live, it is going to be very difficult to get their lives started, and it is also going to be frightening to give, to be generous with one's self. It is as if Fives are thinking "There is not enough of me even for me. If others want things from me, there won't be anything left. I need time to build myself up." However, no amount of studying, learning, or hoarding makes them feel any more ready to deal with their lives.

I keep seeing this everywhere, I used to feel that time would have to come to a complete halt just so that I could learn everything, and I was almost starting to worry about it. As it obviously turns out, that's the wrong way to go.

I don't get how I'm supposed to "deal with life"? What is this idea of living and why is it better than my own?

Should I be trying to get myself away from the imaginary? There's no distinct line between real and imaginary, there are some things that are completely imaginary like fantasy books, video games, and there are slightly more practical things like guitar, mechanics, martial arts, and then there's stuff that people call real, but seems equally unimportant. So many people can spend hours just texting.

What the hell counts as reality? A job? I wont have that until I complete University. Friends? I was almost exactly like a 9 (too much time spent with them, could never get time to myself etc.) until I isolated myself to get better at uni... I'm trying to turn that around, but I get anxious now and feel that it will take to much energy, I can handle that. Every day things? Like bills, cleaning, sleeping, eating... is that it?
 

Red Herring

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Give me a call when you have found a solution.

Right now all I can tell you is that I empathize. Both with the sensation that "real life" hasn't started yet (I'm 31, graduated with the equivalent of a masters degree, have been comfortably getting by as a freelancer for several years now, live on my own, have a healthy relationship with a loving boyfriend and responsibly take care of two pets on top of that - and still I feel like a little girl who is just weasling her way through the world, not really prepared for the life "out there", one of these days it will come out and everything will fall apart) and the paralyzing awareness that your skills just aren't up to scratch.

I have trouble drawing a stick figure without noticing how it isn't Rembrandt and thinking how I should really study art until I basically am Rembrandt before I can even think about drawing again. Every line on the paper is a bitter reminder of the discrepency between the actual skills and the desired skills. The same goes for all other forms of artistic expression, academic fields of knowledge and even things I really should know a lot about...like my profession and several long time interests.

It is never good enough. It is always work in progress.
 
G

Glycerine

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Oh the the joys of "analysis paralysis".... I have been trying to find something that people call "passion" to help with this sort of dilemma. I also considered "mindfulness" but that sounds exhausting. lol The idea of combining the role of "detached observer" and being engaged in the present moment/environment w/ no judgements.
 

Asterion

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Give me a call when you have found a solution.

Right now all I can tell you is that I empathize. Both with the sensation that "real life" hasn't started yet (I'm 31, graduated with the equivalent of a masters degree, have been comfortably getting by as a freelancer for several years now, live on my own, have a healthy relationship with a loving boyfriend and responsibly take care of two pets on top of that - and still I feel like a little girl who is just weasling her way through the world, not really prepared for the life "out there", one of these days it will come out and everything will fall apart) and the paralyzing awareness that your skills just aren't up to scratch.

I have trouble drawing a stick figure without noticing how it isn't Rembrandt and thinking how I should really study art until I basically am Rembrandt before I can even think about drawing again. Every line on the paper is a bitter reminder of the discrepency between the actual skills and the desired skills. The same goes for all other forms of artistic expression, academic fields of knowledge and even things I really should know a lot about...like my profession and several long time interests.

It is never good enough. It is always work in progress.

hmmm, that doesn't really fill me with hope... I think maybe it means that you should not just sit back and learn and that you actually need to use your skills in real life situations. Like with guitar, I play it a bit, I could dream of playing for people, but I could never do it, every time I think of it, all I want to do is practice because it's not perfect, and it's only good enough for everyone else to hear if it's perfect.

And maybe there's also a second aspect, because we get caught up in our minds, you've got to learn when to snap out of that and face the reality that's gnawing at your skin. Like right now, I should stop thinking and get ready for bed, but that's always easier said than done.

Oh the the joys of "analysis paralysis".... I have been trying to find something that people call "passion" to help with this sort of dilemma. I also considered "mindfulness" but that sounds exhausting. lol The idea of combining the role of "detached observer" and being engaged in the present moment/environment w/ no judgements.

Surely that's impossible to do simultaneously, I guess that because 5s default to being observers, just throwing yourself into positions of control and action before other people get a chance to shove you out the way and take over would be enough to balance you out? Though, I did hear that some fives will become active as much as they can, and then take a step back into observer mode, then re-engage.

My biggest annoyance is that I try to do something practical and get pushed out the way unless I'm on my own, which makes me want to isolate myself more.
 
G

Glycerine

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hmmm, that doesn't really fill me with hope... I think maybe it means that you should not just sit back and learn and that you actually need to use your skills in real life situations. Like with guitar, I play it a bit, I could dream of playing for people, but I could never do it, every time I think of it, all I want to do is practice because it's not perfect, and it's only good enough for everyone else to hear if it's perfect.

And maybe there's also a second aspect, because we get caught up in our minds, you've got to learn when to snap out of that and face the reality that's gnawing at your skin. Like right now, I should stop thinking and get ready for bed, but that's always easier said than done.



Surely that's impossible to do simultaneously, I guess that because 5s default to being observers, just throwing yourself into positions of control and action before other people get a chance to shove you out the way and take over would be enough to balance you out? Though, I did hear that some fives will become active as much as they can, and then take a step back into observer mode, then re-engage.

My biggest annoyance is that I try to do something practical and get pushed out the way unless I'm on my own, which makes me want to isolate myself more.

I should clarify. There is a line of thinking that makes it seem possible to do both simultaneously. One is engaged in the present moment by just observing things, people around them, one's own emotions and thoughts but at the same time, the person is not making judgements or analyzing it... it's just what it is and being able to let things go. It's awareness (being engaged) and detachment all rolled into one shebang. However, for a five, I bet that would be next to impossible unless they are really focused. 5's tend to analyze everything and anything because of an overriding fear of not being competent or capable so being able to take that judgement piece out of the equation for a few minutes can give one clarity.

EDIT: I am horrible at mindfulness but it does send me back into reality after a couple minutes. But then again I am a small extrovert.
 

VagrantFarce

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I keep seeing this everywhere, I used to feel that time would have to come to a complete halt just so that I could learn everything, and I was almost starting to worry about it. As it obviously turns out, that's the wrong way to go.

I don't get how I'm supposed to "deal with life"? What is this idea of living and why is it better than my own?

Should I be trying to get myself away from the imaginary? There's no distinct line between real and imaginary, there are some things that are completely imaginary like fantasy books, video games, and there are slightly more practical things like guitar, mechanics, martial arts, and then there's stuff that people call real, but seems equally unimportant. So many people can spend hours just texting.

What the hell counts as reality? A job? I wont have that until I complete University. Friends? I was almost exactly like a 9 (too much time spent with them, could never get time to myself etc.) until I isolated myself to get better at uni... I'm trying to turn that around, but I get anxious now and feel that it will take to much energy, I can handle that. Every day things? Like bills, cleaning, sleeping, eating... is that it?

My experience:

You have to replace that overwhelming feeling of invasion you get when you feel people's expectations placed upon you. And in my experience, it comes from a source of emotional strength.

Learn to be receptive to life and love, instead of constantly holding it back. Actively reach out and place your stakes in the world emotionally. Suddenly, you have the strength to do anything, instead of reserving it for some things.

In short: stop giving in to fear, because it will never go away - learn to stare it in the face instead of hiding. And stop making excuses for yourself as a result - you're going to end up believing them one day, I guaran-fucking-tee it.
 

Asterion

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I was wondering what a 5 would need to do to grow, and I came up with this:

- Establish a good sleep habit
- Become proficient in important skills
- Take care of their body
- Connect with other people
- Know when to snap back to reality and when to think
- Become active and engaged in important activities

This is just what I think I should be working on, I don't know how much that applies to other 5s.

In short: stop giving in to fear, because it will never go away - learn to stare it in the face instead of hiding. And stop making excuses for yourself as a result - you're going to end up believing them one day, I guaran-fucking-tee it.

Thanks Vagrant, do you have any examples of these excuses?
 

VagrantFarce

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Thanks Vagrant, do you have any examples of these excuses?

Speaking for myself, they typically revolved around "this is a waste of my time", or "I don't know how to do this".

Bullshit it's a waste of your time, especially if someone's asking you for a favour - make time, give energy, think something of yourself.
Of course you don't know how to do it, you haven't even bothered trying! Get some fucking swagger and jump in the deep end - you'll figure it out on the way.
 

FunnyDigestion

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[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9FBQ1O5F8k&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9FBQ1O5F8k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

I think what you're struggling with is fundamentally the question of control... you think things are too wild & dangerous to deal with unless you're prepared for them. & I understand that, I struggle with that myself even though I'm an INFP 4. & the idea I always come back to is that life is inevitable.. kinda like Murphy's Law, life is that thing in Murphy's law that can go wrong & does go wrong. Life is that thing that happens without you noticing it happening. Look at how humanity fits into nature-- whenever people try to control the course of nature, like the balance of an ecosystem or something like that, it backfires & things end up even more out of control than in the beginning.

I think a lot of people get overwhelmed by the significance of different things in life-- sex, relationships, friends, careers-- & get carried away to a place where they can't do anything particularly relating to those things, because all they can think about are the BIG THINGS, almost like they're archetypes. If that makes sense. Like 3000 years from now, none of what anyone today spends their life doing is going to seem meaningful-- people are gonna look back & not know what the fuck we were on about. But, to me, that's not a reason to disengage from the present, rather to engage it even more closely, because the details become important. Things that seem big & archetypal, they're built out of tiny little things. & it's only upon reflection that they become significant-- after you've thrown all caution to the wind & just gone out & done some shit. It isn't necessary to know everything about what you're doing, I don't believe.

Maybe this is a split between 4 and 5 types. Sometimes I feel like the dividing line is one's attitude toward knowledge-- 4s are less concerned with knowing things. It's not that it's just a means to an end, but that it's always illusory in some way... how do you know for certain whether what you know is true, or if it is true then whether it's really worth knowing? Usually, I don't think it matters that much.

Things I'm always telling myself:

1) be more fearless
2) be more carefree
3) be more careFUL (as in prudent, doing the right thing for the present situation)
4) be warmer (more engaged, less preoccupied w/ empty possibility)

All of those things to me sum basically to "moving into life", whatever that really means... it's kind of like tilting a balance within yourself, away from one side toward the other side. Kinda weird.

Dunno if you can relate to any of that... but hopefully something up there could help a little.
 

VagrantFarce

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One thing that really helped me out is accepting that fear will never go away - it's pointless to try and not be afraid, since you can easily achieve this by shrinking away from the world. So I never listen to people who say "don't be afraid", since I've been trying to do that my whole life!

What's really important is recognising and accepting your place in the world, and taking responsibility for it - despite whatever misgivings you may have for being there. Choose to stand on shaky ground, and you suddenly become full of life and strength - and most importantly, people place their faith in you.
 

Redbone

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I have to agree with the PP. It doesn't go away until you do something about it. I was married for a long time, I have children, and I've observed a lot. It wasn't until my marriage ended that I learned that I have to stop shielding myself from life. I led the kind of life where I built up a lot of walls to keep things or people from interfering or demanding too much of my energy. I got in a jam where I had to make choices and act on them or stay where I was. I'm doing all kinds of things that I'd never thought I'd do...move across the country, be a single parent, go back to college, pursue a career in science, etc.

It's been really scary, too. I seriously jumped in the deep end this past year with all the changes. But despite it all being really overwhelming at times, I'm getting to a point where I feel alive. Like I'm waking up from a long (drugged) sleep. If I let my fear of being overwhelmed get in the way, I'd still be stuck observing life in that dream state. Just detached, aloof, and pretty much dead above ground. I'm still scared even now but I'll never let my fear stand in my way again.

I can't believe I wrote that....
 

Bamboozle

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Pretty much going to agree with everything [MENTION=5632]VagrantFarce[/MENTION] said. I think that's exactly it. It all resonated but this bit particularly—

VagrantFarce said:
Actively reach out and place your stakes in the world emotionally.

That's the scary bit. For me, though, I think it's not just emotionally. It's putting anything out there. It's almost like I try my hardest to pretend I'm not present at any moment. When I was younger, I had myself partly convinced that people wouldn't see me if I sat still enough. I don't think it anymore, but I kind of still feel like that. I want to be able to put things out in the world when I'm ready and when I feel up to it. But I'm starting to recognise that that's not going to be good enough.

Thanks for sharing, VagrantFarce.

ETA:
King-Of-Despair said:
I was wondering what a 5 would need to do to grow, and I came up with this:

- Establish a good sleep habit
- Become proficient in important skills
- Take care of their body
- Connect with other people
- Know when to snap back to reality and when to think
- Become active and engaged in important activities

This is just what I think I should be working on, I don't know how much that applies to other 5s.

Just to clarify my stance, I think it's not just everyday things that 5s need to improve on—which is what you seem to be suggesting. I think it's the entire 5 perspective on life that can be problematic (not always, though). I think that's what [MENTION=13370]FunnyDigestion[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5632]VagrantFarce[/MENTION] are getting at too.
 

Richardsen

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I see this as a huge fear of being empty... But I don't see this as a 7ish way...
Maybe a "core" emptines .
Im not a 5 btw... But I think that maybe Im right
or not???
 

Coriolis

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Learn to be receptive to life and love, instead of constantly holding it back. Actively reach out and place your stakes in the world emotionally. Suddenly, you have the strength to do anything, instead of reserving it for some things.
I wouldn't call it emotional stakes, but for me it involves an element of risk-taking, facing the possibility of failure. Doing nothing or not trying, however, is a guarantee of failure. Yes, I have the drive to perfect, too, but I have also learned what is good enough - usually much more than good enough, if not quite perfect. "Enough" is defined by whether it gets the job done, and "the job" is my goal, the thing I want to happen. If I don't engage with the world, I will never make anything happen. The drive to do that, however, is probably related to J/P as well as ennea/stackings.
 

Asterion

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Thanks for the replies everyone, very inspirational.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/5growth.asp

I think this nailed it perfectly. Can't believe I didn't notice it before.

Personal Growth Recommendations
for Enneagram Type Fives

Learn to notice when your thinking and speculating takes you out of the immediacy of your experience. Your mental capacities can be an extraordinary gift, but only can also be a trap when you use them to retreat from contact with yourself and others. Stay connected with your physicality.

You tend to be extremely intense and so high-strung that you find it difficult to relax and unwind. Make an effort to learn to calm down in a healthy way, without drugs or alcohol. Exercising or using biofeedback techniques will help channel some of your tremendous nervous energy. Meditation, jogging, yoga, and dancing are especially helpful for your type.

You see many possibilities but often do not know how to choose among them or judge which is more or less important. When you are caught in your fixation, a sense of perspective can be missing, and with it the ability to make accurate assessments. At such time, it can be helpful to get the advice of someone whose judgment you trust while you are gaining perspective on your situation. Doing this can also help you trust someone else, a difficulty for your type.

Notice when you are getting intensely involved in projects that do not necessarily support your self-esteem, confidence, or life situation. It is possible to follow many different fascinating subjects, games, and pastimes, but they can become huge distractions from what you know really need to do. Decisive action will bring more confidence than learning more facts or acquiring more unrelated skills.

Fives tend to find it difficult to trust people, to open up to them emotionally, or to make themselves accessible in various ways. Their awareness of potential problems in relationships may tend to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is important to remember that having conflicts with others is not unusual and that the healthy thing is to work them out rather than reject attachments with people by withdrawing into isolation. Having one or two intimate friends whom you trust enough to have conflicts with will enrich your life greatly.

I wish I had seen this and known I was an E5 years ago.
 

Cimarron

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The thing is that it never says "why," it just says to do it, which feels pretty empty and kind of "off," yeah. So it sounds as if they're saying, "Look, just...stop being 5-ish. That's the way to grow." Maybe written by someone who doesn't "get" 5s.

Edit: Talking about OP, not the post above with the link.
 

jixmixfix

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I'm a 5, just don't tale everything so seriously and enjoy yourself. Even if you are alone try to self nurture yourself like going for a peaceful walk, or grabbing a cofeee. I find most people worry about the dumbest things and it's impossible to live by everybody expectations. I've realized that I don't need other people to make me happy.
 

Asterion

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I'm a 5, just don't tale everything so seriously and enjoy yourself. Even if you are alone try to self nurture yourself like going for a peaceful walk, or grabbing a cofeee. I find most people worry about the dumbest things and it's impossible to live by everybody expectations. I've realized that I don't need other people to make me happy.

Isn't part of 5s problem that they want to be too independent? The article above mentions that having just a few very close friends will help out 5s greatly. I could see what you mean if you're saying that you don't need a huge amount of people to make you happy, I feel that one.

I like being relaxed, but it is challenging. One moment I will be completely calm, then I'll drift off into my head and become super tense over nothing, then shake it off. I'm not sure if that's specific to this type, but I'm always tense, and it makes it hard to perform (like, I mess up when I show people something I've learned on piano and sometimes guitar because my arms just tense up and stop working smoothly).

I'd like to know when 5s traits work best? I've been studying lately for exams, and I'm finding that I can learn one subject in depth while worrying about another subject, so I'm trying to use that anxiety to study each subject in depth, maybe if I could artificially control that anxiety by applying stress elsewhere in my life. When is it good to be disconnected? When is it good to sit back and observe?
 

the state i am in

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for me i change the terms of the debate.

reality or unreality is less important than introversion and extroversion (reality testing!). i think making shit, interacting, being present, and being a body are the keys to e5 growth.

i think the intense mental energy of a e5 type can just pull up all your awareness out of your body into your mind (because, clearly, it has the furthest reaches! to possibilities! infinite contexts!). but that draws you out of your instinctive center, e8 turns into your shadow, and to cope with your lack of resources and flexibility (because your mind keeps borrowing currency against your heart and body), you just get more fickle and tempted to have fun and play with more possibilities and live in avoidance rather than come down and deal with your life. and you also get trapped in the riddles of the mind and worry that you don't have all solutions and that you are vulnerable in various situations that you can imagine.

this overreliance on the mind leads to the other side of the equation. that mental energy that generates so much excitability leads to inflexibility when you refuse to let go of those possibilities and be here now and say okay, act! this inflexibility and overreliance creates also creates a discomfort and distrust in just being a body, an instinctive body (losing access tobboth all of the intelligence that we forget is inscribed in the body and to the different power we have access to when we are grounded, fully present, and act assertively and learn from our actions). because, well, we haven't spent much time there and don't know how to operate fluidly there and don't know how to move back and forth because our minds keep hijacking our awareness into longer strings of possibilities and more complex contexts.

so to get better, do yoga, meditate, go for walks, and just say no ideas. at least for a bit of time each day. doing this will break many of the cycles that lead to more extreme imbalances. i work on my thesis for 8 hours a day at the library and then i leave and i see people i know and i feel like i am so far away from my body and the moment that my 7 second radio delay makes me unable to even muster a response before we're both in the past. i feel like i'm in the basement ten stories down, and someone is knocking on the door at ground level, and i can't answer the door in time. but i know that balance is to be found in creating spaces of silence and using those moments to shift attention and restore awareness and keep working on building a more integrated, consistently available, resourceful and fluid awareness. really that's the premise of all enlightenment practices. that and realizing that in doing so, your own identifications with others, community, the world, etc, get more expansive.
 

Uytuun

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I filled the fridge (to a level that transcends the haphazard or immediately required) and updated my medicine cabinet today...it takes energy to look after myself, it really does. The small comforts in life aren't my strong suit.

I spend more time in the world these days, but I treat myself as more of guinea pig still...looking what I can learn from experiences, how I react, how people react, what experiences might generate interesting stuff.
 
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