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  1. #21
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    Some additional information regarding the difference between the two types:

    3w4

    May be slightly less image-conscious or project an image that is more implicit and subtle. 4 wing brings a degree of introversion. May measure themselves more by their creations, artistic or social. Tend to compete with themselves first more than with other people. High side brings the motivation and ability to work on oneself. May accomplish everything they set out to do materially, then embark on a path of self-analysis. Artistic explorations or teaching possible. Will still like a challenge, but thoughtful, intuitive or humanistic concerns of prime interest. The low side of this wing can bring a haunted, self-tormented quality or a haughty, competitive pretentiousness. Might be snobs or accuse critics of being too plebian to appreciate them. Cool, hard shell. In private, can lapse into Fourish self-questioning and melodrama. Instability and moodiness can be factors. Unrealistic grandiosity.

    The 3w4 version of outstanding is closer to something that's more w4 exclusive, more unique and original, just out of reach and admired from a distance. 3w4s are more aloof, more melanchonlic and icy cool. They tend to romanticize the hard work needed to get to top when no one was looking: "the dignity that is in work"(Obama). They are about putting their best foot forward in a more professional dignified manner. As one poster put it:

    "The 3w4 romanticising of “hard work” is really the keen awareness of the image/reality dichotomy – it’s about “everything you don’t see” – the work it takes to “appear as though there is no effort involved” – it’s about knowing “what it takes”; that sense of bittersweetness every time someone gives you a compliment. It’s the secret you keep of everything you’re not – of how you’ve had to become, but that no one else will ever know. It’s the steely, gracious and enigmatic smile as you walk on stage, thinking about “what it’s taken to get here”. That’s the 3w4 romanticism of hard work. That sense of being born with leaden feet, but having overcome it with nothing but willpower and desire, to take to flight as though always born with great and golden wings."
    4w3

    Fours with a 3 wing can sometimes seem like Sevens. May be outgoing, have a sense of humor and style. Prize being both creative and effective in the world. Both intuitive and ambitious; may have good imaginations, often talented. Some are colorful, fancy dressers, make a distinct impression. Self-knowledge combines well with social and organizational skills. When more entranced, often have a public/private split. Could conceal feelings in public then go home to loneliness. Or they could enjoy their work and be dissatisfied in love. Tendency towards melodrama and flamboyance; true feelings can often be hidden. Competitive, sneaky, aware of how they look. Some have bad taste. May be fickle in love, drawn to romantic images that they have projected onto others. Could have a dull spouse, then fantasize about glamorous strangers. Achievements can be tainted by jealousy, revenge, or a desire to prove the crowd wrong.

    4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

    4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

    Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".

  2. #22
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    the difference is how they express their 4 tendencies.
    - 4w3s wear their shame and feelings on their sleeve. they are emotionally volatile and usually highly reactive
    - 3w4s guard their inner 4-ish side. they are more vulnerable than 3s with a 2 wing and often try to hide this vulnerability. in a sense, the 4 wing in 3w4 is held in a similar position as the 2 integration of 8. in both cases, the person has a soft, vulnerable, almost childlike spot that they make an effort to hide from the outside world, fearing it will get in the way or their ambitions or success
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  3. #23
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    3w4s are human doing, they base their identities on their performable success "I'am what I do".
    4w3s are human feeling, they base their identidy on their tragico-romantic feelings "I'am what I feel".

    Simple.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Cloud of Thunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - 3w4s guard their inner 4-ish side. they are more vulnerable than 3s with a 2 wing and often try to hide this vulnerability. in a sense, the 4 wing in 3w4 is held in a similar position as the 2 integration of 8. in both cases, the person has a soft, vulnerable, almost childlike spot that they make an effort to hide from the outside world, fearing it will get in the way or their ambitions or success
    Yes.

  5. #25
    Member WhimsyGirl's Avatar
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    reading type descriptions of 3's makes me tired. lol.

  6. #26
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Here's one:

    I know a young lady who is very self-assertive - perhaps her primary trait - to the point of egotistic and even bordering on narcissistic. We are coworkers, and she spends much of her time elaborating on details about herself and her life, mostly framed in a self-flattering way (and she "embraces" the weaknesses she chooses to broadcast). She is very proud of certain attributes of herself and talks about them frequently. She is typically condescending and not very social with those below her position status, but she is warm and interactive with higher-ups. When stressed, she gets very directive, and when highly stressed, she becomes goofy and childlike. On the positive side, she is individualistic and entertaining. She has a "dark" streak to her: she likes metal music, went through a goth phase, and play-violence.

    She seems to vibe 4w3, but her primary motive seems to be being seen as valuable and worthwhile by those around her, not being unique.

  7. #27
    Member WhimsyGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Here's one:

    I know a young lady who is very self-assertive - perhaps her primary trait - to the point of egotistic and even bordering on narcissistic. We are coworkers, and she spends much of her time elaborating on details about herself and her life, mostly framed in a self-flattering way (and she "embraces" the weaknesses she chooses to broadcast). She is very proud of certain attributes of herself and talks about them frequently. She is typically condescending and not very social with those below her position status, but she is warm and interactive with higher-ups. When stressed, she gets very directive, and when highly stressed, she becomes goofy and childlike. On the positive side, she is individualistic and entertaining. She has a "dark" streak to her: she likes metal music, went through a goth phase, and play-violence.

    She seems to vibe 4w3, but her primary motive seems to be being seen as valuable and worthwhile by those around her, not being unique.
    sounds like an unhealthy 3w4 to me--what else, besides that whole goth, unique front vibes 4w3? sounds like u don't think much of her, however

    " highly stressed, she becomes goofy and childlike." this strikes me as very interesting, because the point of INTEGRATION for a 3 is 6, which is what this sounds like. But i've seen it before with 3's and it could just be more to maintain a likeable image wen they're scared of failing...

  8. #28
    Member WhimsyGirl's Avatar
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    also, best type description of a 3:

    Imagine that you are looking into a mirror. What you see is a reflection of yourself, an image that accurately portrays how you look. When a Type Three looks into that mirror, they see more than a passive reflection of themselves. Type Threes want to take control of that image and direct it as they wish.

    Each Enneagram type has a “Holy Idea” that describes the fundamental fixation of the type. According to traditional Enneagram theory, each Holy Idea represents one facet of existence. The Holy Idea of Type Three is hope, which is defined as “the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best.” Type Three is also an image type (like Two and Four), which means that their primary sphere of action is in the world of perception – both of themselves and others. If you place the holy idea of Hope within the realm of image, you start to understand the core motivation of the Type Three; they modify their image in order to gain what is wanted.

    Some might think this is a negative quality, but that can't be further from the truth. Image focus is sometimes associated with egocentric people, but for the Type Three, the world of the image is simply the area in which they are most skilled to act. The image is the all-purpose Swiss army knife of the Type Three personality.

    As you can tell, Type Threes place an emphasis on action. This makes Type Three one of the most engaging types in the Enneagram, if only because they are constantly striving to improve themselves. Everyone possesses a Freudian ego ideal, but Type Threes are fixated on fulfilling that ego ideal through their appearance. This ego ideal is essentially unattainable, which leads the Type Three on a neverending quest for personal improvement. Threes may also fear that they have no inner value, which leads them to fill the gap with an idealized image.

    For most people, their image is out of their reach. An action may change their image, but that requires others to accept it. But the Type Three is operating in an area that few can reach, and can adapt their image as required in a very fluid way. This leads the Type Three to their vice of deceit. In this case, deceit doesn't mean outright lying. It doesn't mean that Type Threes are naturally liars or naturally misleading, as some people believe. Deceit reflects a desire to present an image without regard as to whether or not it truly reflects reality. In simpler terms, this is the “fake it until you make it” mentality. This can sometimes be a crutch for Threes, who might engage in behavior to appear more attractive, intelligent, wealthy, or any number of things. For this reason, Threes can sometimes be so fluid with their image that they may lose track of who they really are. This effect is pronounced at unhealthy levels of development.

    The virtue of the Three, truthfulness, stands in opposition to deceit. Truthfulness, in this context, is embodied in the accurate expression of reality. Threes, when exhibiting truthfulness, are realistic and down-to-earth as they move up to healthy levels of development. Healthy Threes have grand and successful images, but those images are earned and their expression of them reflects reality. Healthy Threes are therefore open, generous, realistic and warm. Many Threes may find that they cannot find value in themselves until they reach high levels of health. They may also not be truly aware of how they come across to others until they reach this level.

    In more practical terms, Threes are usually engaging, aspirational, active, and are natural go-getters as they chase an idealized version of themselves.

    full link: http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-fo...scription.html


    and, as a pt of comparison:

    http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-fo...scription.html

  9. #29
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    A 4w3 can be very similar to this too. That is, trying to improve to fulfill an idealized self-image, to be successful, desirable, special, acquire power, acquire status, etc. The uniqueness that a 4 strives for can overlap with many of those things. However, the biggest disparity I see within myself compared to 3w4s is the inconsistency and perhaps self awareness (probably leads to self-consciousness). I feel like the 3 wing adds the social element, but the 4, since tied to feelings, and since feelings are tied to identity, is always up and down. As a core 4, emotions are always dragging me around, questioning every social action I take, looking for authenticity, rejecting, and cultivating certain traits. That's why when we feel that we've given the wrong impression, we withdraw, rather easily.

    With that said, I'm a little bothered by some of the explanations of this type. The descriptions I've read of the type describe a sort of a flashy extroverted type. Personally, I don't like to display my emotions for everyone to see. I'm ashamed to show emotions. I've read a post somewhere that attributed this to the 3 wing. Much of this drama and diva behavior that is described comes out alone (in fantasies) or amongst close family members. I do not like making a scene in public or amongst colleagues, or even amongst friends. Also, the introversion to extroversion description sounds overstated. I alternate between aloofness/cold and being sociable/charming, not introversion and extroversion. They make it seem like all 4w3s are extroverts and all 4w5s are introverts. Anyways, just thought I'd put it out there, from the perspective of an infp.

  10. #30
    Member WhimsyGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    With that said, I'm a little bothered by some of the explanations of this type. The descriptions I've read of the type describe a sort of a flashy extroverted type. Personally, I don't like to display my emotions for everyone to see. I'm ashamed to even have emotions. I've read a post somewhere that attributed this to the 3 wing......4w3s are extroverts and all 4w5s are introverts. Anyways, just thought I'd put it out there, from the perspective of an infp.
    agreed. the type descriptions i've read also make 4w3's to be flashier, more outgoing, and extroverted than 3w4's.

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