User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 38

  1. #11
    Member Guy V. Malaxia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Ahhh...this is making much more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    depends on what you mean by withdrawn. 3w4s often times are more poised and low key while 4w3s tend to be more emotionally expressive, passionate and intense (of course MBTI and instinct variant will play big roles in this as well), so, while the 4w3 is probably more introspective, the 3w4 can sometimes be closer to what is traditionally considered introverted
    The bolded really resonates with me. It seems like most Three descriptions are geared toward those with a Two wing, so I could never really identify with the "socially graceful" stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The big difference is that 3w4 are human doing and base their identitity on their performable success, while 4w3 are human feeling who base their identity on their emotions and feelings and over-identify with them.
    I've always felt like the feeling of intrinsic self-worth is a bunch of bull. I'm not a great person until I've accomplished something great.

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Try to consider which one sits better with you on its own - that can be your core type.

    They're both emotional types, in that their fixations emerge from their heart and result in a need to create some sort of image for themselves.

    • For 3s, the issue is a need for admiration - they want to feel like they're the best, and so they construct their images to make them seem like they're accomplished and successful and admirable people.
    • For 4s, the issue is a need for romanticism - they want to feel special and elevate their emotions, often to the point of drama or tragedy.


    Considering this, I would contend that 3s are more malleable to what others expect of them, whereas 4s are more likely to follow the beat of their own drummer. In other words, 4s more easily dismiss the feelings of others in favor of their own, whereas 3s are constantly adapting to what others expect of them.

    Does that seem accurate?
    Very accurate.

    Thanks for the responses, everyone! I'm definitely a 3w4.

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy V. Malaxia View Post
    Ahhh...this is making much more sense.
    The bolded really resonates with me. It seems like most Three descriptions are geared toward those with a Two wing, so I could never really identify with the "socially graceful" stereotype.
    I've always felt like the feeling of intrinsic self-worth is a bunch of bull. I'm not a great person until I've accomplished something great.
    Very accurate.
    Thanks for the responses, everyone! I'm definitely a 3w4.
    you're right, the descriptions tend to lean WAY 3w2, just like the 8 descriptions lean 8w7, the 7 descriptions lean 7w6.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The 4w3 can be confused with the type 8. Charles Manson is a brooding, unhealthy 4w3. (I know the internet says he is a type 6, but I can't even begin to fathom the reason for that call.) The 3w4 is a bit quieter over-all (less intense).
    Maria Callas is a great example of a 4w3 (Sx/Sp) who looks like an 8.
    3w4s can look like 8s too. Whitney Houston, Scarlett O'Hara, and Poison Ivy are good examples of this
    PS: Charles Manson is an 8w7, probably Sx/So
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  4. #14
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    3w4s are a little more restrained
    4w3s are like RAWWWGH!
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  5. #15
    #KUWK Kierva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Enneagram
    3w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    2,494

    Default

    Why do people ever listen to Elfboy.


    Get the motivations and holy ideas right as well as behaviors under stress and you have the differences.

    What this idiot is saying could apply to any other type as well; ie 5s can also be low-key.
    C#2-C#5-F#5
    3 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone
    Supported range: F#2-F#4-C#5

  6. #16
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    MBTI
    HUMR
    Enneagram
    6 sx
    Socionics
    iNfp Ni
    Posts
    1,521

    Default

    As a 4w3 with a heavy 3 wing, I had a hard time at first. Now it seems SO easy to seperate the two. This is because I actually got off my butt and bought a few books on e-gram. I will say this, for sure: A 4w3 will have to work through their feelings before they can do anything else. A 3w4 can much more easily put emotions aside to do what needs to be done, go to work, finish a project, etc. Now clearly, I haven't always been able to work through my problems first, or else I wouldnt have a job or alot of things. But it is very difficult and painful for me to make this shift of focus, and I feel very distraught even when I have shifted, for some time. Also, core 4's are highly drawn to personality systems, psychology, etc.. to figure themselves out. "If I introspect enough and develop enough self knowledge, I can form a strong identity and rejoin reality".. core 3's DO NOT have this hang up. They are far more focused on getting shit done, achiving, than dilly-dallying around in stuff like this. They might do it for a little insight, but I haven't ever met one take it on like a personal religion. Core 4's find self actualization to be their religion.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #17
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Traits the heart types all share:

    - All heart types are most concerned with developing their self-image.
    - Compensate for feelings of shame & a lack of connection to their true self by constructing an identity.
    - They use their identity to attract others to get love, attention, approval & value.
    - They all have identity issues & hostility towards those who don't affirm their image.

    Some distinctions between the heart types (focusing on just 3 & 4 here):

    - The 2 solution to their identity dilemma is to be needed by others. Their identity is wholly established in relation to how others appreciate/need them. They establish their feelings outwardly then, and may have trouble knowing how they feel themselves & what they need outside of this attention/affection from others. The feeling they are most aware of tends to be not feeling appreciated, because they rely so heavily on external affirmation.

    - Since the 3 is the central type, their solution is both inward & outward. They create an ideal self based on external markers that indicate value & they affirm their valuable qualities to themselves inwardly. They can be the least self-aware as they "believe their own press". Like a 4 they will have internal fantasies of themselves, but they use external standards of success to create this ideal, and they may have trouble admitting their own flaws, inwardly focused on what is valuable about themselves also. They focus on what makes them appear & feel impressive in a positive way. This means they need to do things, be seen, and actively establish their image in reality.

    - 4s are the most self-aware; they easily see their flaws & so they create an identity around being different. They will romanticize anything that sets them apart from others, including & especially flaws. The 4's image is created internally then, and it's affirmed internally, by a sense of feeling unique. The 4 doesn't need direct affirmation from others, because even people who don't recognize the 4 as unique end up leaving the 4 feeling "misunderstood" which then affirms their identity. So unlike the 3, they don't mentally block out their own flaws or use positive external markers to feel valuable; instead they use internal markers of feeling strange & different, even if it means amplifying flaws & disconnecting from others. Their own feelings affirm who they are, which is why they can get stuck in an isolated depression very easily, where their image only plays out in their imagination.

    So how does 4w3 & 3w4 play out then?

    Their solution is still the same as their main type, the wing just influences how they create that image. The 3 with the 4 wing still uses external markers for value & avoids admitting their own flaws to themselves, so as to get affirmation both outwardly & inwardly, but they may seek out external markers which are regarded as "different" or "unique" among their family/culture/whatever. Usually, they will avoid anything too negative though; it still needs to be impressive & largely positive. The 4w3 will still create an internal image that romanticizes their differences from others, but they may adopt traits of people they admire for being different to amplify their feelings of being different. Ultimately, the 4 still needs to feel different more than anything & the 3 needs to be impressive to others and feel valuable themselves. The 4 focus then is on how they feel, allowing feelings to form their image, whereas the 3 uses how they appear to squash down bad feelings. The external markers 4 use are to be different, not necessarily valuable. The 3 markers are to be valuable, not necessarily different. The two can overlap, and that is often what 3w4 & 4w3 both strive for, but IMO, you'll see each "sacrifice" their wing when it comes down to choosing different vs. valuable.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
    Likes Hawthorne, Dorito liked this post

  8. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    4W3
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Traits the heart types all share:

    - All heart types are most concerned with developing their self-image.
    - Compensate for feelings of shame & a lack of connection to their true self by constructing an identity.
    - They use their identity to attract others to get love, attention, approval & value.
    - They all have identity issues & hostility towards those who don't affirm their image.

    Some distinctions between the heart types (focusing on just 3 & 4 here):

    - The 2 solution to their identity dilemma is to be needed by others. Their identity is wholly established in relation to how others appreciate/need them. They establish their feelings outwardly then, and may have trouble knowing how they feel themselves & what they need outside of this attention/affection from others. The feeling they are most aware of tends to be not feeling appreciated, because they rely so heavily on external affirmation.

    - Since the 3 is the central type, their solution is both inward & outward. They create an ideal self based on external markers that indicate value & they affirm their valuable qualities to themselves inwardly. They can be the least self-aware as they "believe their own press". Like a 4 they will have internal fantasies of themselves, but they use external standards of success to create this ideal, and they may have trouble admitting their own flaws, inwardly focused on what is valuable about themselves also. They focus on what makes them appear & feel impressive in a positive way. This means they need to do things, be seen, and actively establish their image in reality.

    - 4s are the most self-aware; they easily see their flaws & so they create an identity around being different. They will romanticize anything that sets them apart from others, including & especially flaws. The 4's image is created internally then, and it's affirmed internally, by a sense of feeling unique. The 4 doesn't need direct affirmation from others, because even people who don't recognize the 4 as unique end up leaving the 4 feeling "misunderstood" which then affirms their identity. So unlike the 3, they don't mentally block out their own flaws or use positive external markers to feel valuable; instead they use internal markers of feeling strange & different, even if it means amplifying flaws & disconnecting from others. Their own feelings affirm who they are, which is why they can get stuck in an isolated depression very easily, where their image only plays out in their imagination.

    So how does 4w3 & 3w4 play out then?

    Their solution is still the same as their main type, the wing just influences how they create that image. The 3 with the 4 wing still uses external markers for value & avoids admitting their own flaws to themselves, so as to get affirmation both outwardly & inwardly, but they may seek out external markers which are regarded as "different" or "unique" among their family/culture/whatever. Usually, they will avoid anything too negative though; it still needs to be impressive & largely positive. The 4w3 will still create an internal image that romanticizes their differences from others, but they may adopt traits of people they admire for being different to amplify their feelings of being different. Ultimately, the 4 still needs to feel different more than anything & the 3 needs to be impressive to others and feel valuable themselves. The 4 focus then is on how they feel, allowing feelings to form their image, whereas the 3 uses how they appear to squash down bad feelings. The external markers 4 use are to be different, not necessarily valuable. The 3 markers are to be valuable, not necessarily different. The two can overlap, and that is often what 3w4 & 4w3 both strive for, but IMO, you'll see each "sacrifice" their wing when it comes down to choosing different vs. valuable.
    This post is so perfectly constructed and I am pleased with such clarity. I've always fluctuated between 4w5 and 4w3 but ultimately I will lean towards the 3 wing, because I can't help it. The above quote shows a 4w5's beautifully clear analysis, whereas whenever I try to purely analyze things, there will be a slant to it based on being somewhat flashy or provocative. I desire to appear scintillating more than I desire to appear genuine. And for someone who values being genuine more than anything else, I fail to live up to my own standards in favor of *appearances*.
    Therein lies the struggle of a 4w3.

    While I have a lot of 5 in me, there is such a vain and superficial dimension to my personality, but I actually enjoy it. My favorite band is Motley Crue. Not very 5ish.

    My core type is absolutely a 4 since I spend so much time alone, and enjoy it immensely, actually too much.

    While extremely self-conscious and sometimes shy, when speaking to people I pull off a sort of "act" and I have the ability to do this very convincingly, aided by the intuition of the 4. I do not experience stage fright. When faced with a situation where the spotlight is on me and I get all the attention I crave and feel endlessly deprived of, I kick into a higher gear, combining the 4's acute awareness with the 3's untouchable focus on performance.

    Ultimately I will never compare to the 4w5's because of my wild, somewhat attractive, dastardly 3ish streak that distracts me away from intellectual pursuits.

  9. #19
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7legion77 View Post
    While I have a lot of 5 in me, there is such a vain and superficial dimension to my personality, but I actually enjoy it. My favorite band is Motley Crue. Not very 5ish.
    Your music taste has nothing to do with your type, that's just being silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7legion77 View Post
    My core type is absolutely a 4 since I spend so much time alone, and enjoy it immensely, actually too much.
    Why do you enjoy it? That's more important. It's far more common to attribute this trait to 5s rather than 4s by the way, out of a need to "recharge".
    Hello

  10. #20
    In orbit
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx
    Posts
    291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    3w4s are a little more restrained
    4w3s are like RAWWWGH!
    so true.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The two can overlap, and that is often what 3w4 & 4w3 both strive for, but IMO, you'll see each "sacrifice" their wing when it comes down to choosing different vs. valuable.
    This is a really good observation. It actually happened in real life to me where I had a very important decision which came down to choosing between success and in a way being true to what you perceive is your "core self" and I chose different over valuable. Primary drive wins like you said.

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] Commonalities/differences between ENFP and ENFJ
    By proteanmix in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 09-23-2015, 02:35 PM
  2. The difference between Freedom and Tolerance?
    By Kiddo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-05-2008, 06:18 PM
  3. What's the difference between meritocracy and technocracy?
    By Ezra in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 07:21 AM
  4. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-08-2007, 08:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO