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  1. #11
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Not that you're hypothesis doesn't make sense, but it really all comes down to health level...
    Yes, level of health will always be the deciding factor. But I think its fair to say that the majority of people are not uber-healthy, and fall into the average range, with the typical fixations. So what I mean is that the 4w5 (5's fixation being knowlege, autonomy, freedom) would be a natural quality to aid in the 4's fixations (of seeking the perfect, idealized romantic relation) as the 5 might dim-down that emotional intensity and demand. However, I also see that at a unhealhty level this could seriously backfire.. causing the 4w5 to sit in detached reflection and contemplation to the point of never even getting that romantic relation rolling.

    Edit: @Ginkgo - just saw yours
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Yes, level of health will always be the deciding factor. But I think its fair to say that the majority of people are not uber-healthy, and fall into the average range, with the typical fixations. So what I mean is that the 4w5 (5's fixation being knowlege, autonomy, freedom) would be a natural quality to aid in the 4's fixations (of seeking the perfect, idealized romantic relation) as the 5 might dim-down that emotional intensity and demand. However, I also see that at a unhealhty level this could seriously backfire.. causing the 4w5 to sit in detached reflection and contemplation to the point of never even getting that romantic relation rolling.
    Yeah, maybe. When I am in a healthy relationship, I am extremely low maintenance (like orangeappled said about herself). But part of my being easy is that I'm really withdrawn/in my head. So I may seem fine, but that's also because I don't share. Fifteen years deep with my husband I still struggle to tell him when I'm depressed (which is most of the time), probably mainly because then he wants to fix it and he gets frustrated because he thinks if I would just get up and do things and accomplish shit it would go away. (he's the type of person who actually finishes everything he starts, something I cannot even remotely comprehend.)

    I feel like I have decent energy when it comes to get a relationship 'rolling'. My guess this has to do with being the sexual variant. It's all the other stuff in my life that I have hard time acting on.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    E4's.. what are your thoughts or experiences with your e-type and others? Do you think there is a natural compatibility between these types?
    I'm a 4w5. Here's a couple I remember and whose types I have worked out:

    ISFP 4w3: This was extremely volatile within the realm of hurt feelings and wounded pride. I would often be baffled at her need to be seen by others when she was clearly upset deep down. She would then start "showing off" in front of other people, which I found oddly disrespectful because it invalidated the intensity of our mutual emotional understanding regarding her "wounded at the core" sentiments. Then she would become very upset, crying because I would turn to my 5 wing ("Your emotions are invalid and offensive. I am removing myself from this situation.") and give her the cold shoulder. I would then feel bad and see the good in her once again. Then we would make up in a rather passionate fashion. I found this all very draining and her behaviour was irritatingly shallow at times. She saw a great depth in me and a huge well for understanding, but her lack of respect for my values spelled disaster.

    ENFP 7: This was fun. I began to withdraw because I thought the 7 did not really like me in a romantic sense. She was always surrounded by guys very different to me (I believe they would be "frat boys" if they were American) and I thought "Why would she want me?" All these guys were in good shape and wanted to go clubbing all the time. I thought that's what she wanted from a bloke. Nevertheless, she seemed quite drawn to me, and would often seek me out if we were in the same club together. She would come to my house (we had mutual friends) and sit with me on the sofa while we watched a film or spontaneously stroke my hair if I were sitting on the floor with her. She was terribly, terribly sweet and so bouncy in that ENFP way. I had concerns that her extroversion would be too demanding and that my need to be holed up in my bedroom with a book and no distractions might irritate her.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  4. #14
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    My last relationship was with a 4w3 (INFP), and I must say I probably wasn't the best match for her. It started out really cool -- I think the way she thought about philosophy and ethics was changed drastically by my ideals. And I learned to loosen the hold I had over my emotions (a little ). But once the loop of drama started, I began micromanaging and she began rebelling, which just led to more micromanaging and rebellion. She was scared I couldn't accept her, so she began testing me to see whether she was right, but the tests themselves made me not accept her, etc. etc.

    It certainly wasn't a good conflict solving combination.

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Yes, level of health will always be the deciding factor. But I think its fair to say that the majority of people are not uber-healthy, and fall into the average range, with the typical fixations. So what I mean is that the 4w5 (5's fixation being knowlege, autonomy, freedom) would be a natural quality to aid in the 4's fixations (of seeking the perfect, idealized romantic relation) as the 5 might dim-down that emotional intensity and demand. However, I also see that at a unhealhty level this could seriously backfire.. causing the 4w5 to sit in detached reflection and contemplation to the point of never even getting that romantic relation rolling.
    Yes, the main issue I have had is not ever venturing to risk relationships or being open enough to sustain one for long; there's a sort of romanticizing of the tragic lone wolf figure, and relationships threaten that identity a little. I remember reading in the Everything Enneagram book that both 4s & 5s have a tendency to form relationships in their heads to avoid real ones, so it's a double whammy with 4w5s. Once in one though, being withdrawn & uncommunicative about my needs is more of an issue than melodrama or testing. I don't expect mind-reading, but I'm so used to being self-contained & self-reliant. The resentment builds when I feel I've given more of myself to the person than they're giving to me, & I've lost my sense of self. When I've tried to assert myself & my needs, then it's been too late; but in the most recent case, I think it was also due to an inflexibility of the person I was dealing with (the INFJ 3w4). This is why, while I am not high maintenance or demanding, I need to feel I'm a priority with someone, that they can match the level of feeling I am willing to put in, because I don't like to risk being the one who cares more.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #16
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    Default My experience as a 4w5 in relationships...

    Like the typical 4w5, most of my relationships were in my fantasies. I always tended to fawn over guys I couldn't get-- there was the illustrious 5w6 intellectual who was too old for me, the spunky 6w7 who turned out to be gay, the considerate 9w1 who found me too detached and cerebral... I had very little luck.

    My first true relationship was with a 7w8. What drew me in was his energy and ambition. (I have a 7 in my tritype, so the energy was something we shared.) He was popular, outgoing, and handsome, and for a 4w5, it meant the world to me. I was a socially awkward nerd girl, and when this popular guy started paying attention to me, it felt amazing. Dating him brought me a lot of confidence and brought me out of my shell. I began to learn the ways of the extroverted world and found that I kind of liked it. In small doses.

    As time passed, I began to discover the places where we didn't quite match up. I was never quite sure how I felt about him. Something seemed missing from our relationship. I wanted someone more like me; someone who could understand me. I wanted someone I could analyze and hypothesize with, but he wasn't a deep thinker. He thought all my deep thoughts and imaginings were silly and that I should focus on the real world. He didn't like the fact that I needed space. He was quick to confront and accuse-- when I told him I didn't want to give up my virginity, he pulled me into a "you don't love me" kind of deal. Our relationship became a power struggle-- him fighting for me to commit to him, and me fighting for some space. It got even worse after I found out he'd been cheating on me.

    I was never sure if I loved him or not. The relationships in my head were much more fulfilling than the one with him. My one-sided infatuations with guy friends were blissful to me. Those guy friends never probed me about what I was feeling or dragged me to places I didn't want to go. They never demanded to see my private inner view-- something I could never share. But he did.

    The weird thing is that he was the emotionally intense one. He started off cool, collected, and charming, with a little mystery under the surface. That drew me in. Then he became grandiose and narcissistic. He was flirtatious, vain, and constantly concerned with what others thought of him, although detached from me. I wasn't sure if I mattered, and I knew he didn't understand me. I began to pull away. When his abusive father came back into town, he broke. He became clingy, jealous, and obsessive. He demanded my love and wept and begged at every turn. Finally, I couldn't take much more of his drama.

    I was the one to break it off. I never looked back. All I felt was freedom. He tried to get me back for the next year and a half, claiming that I had ruined all other girls for him. He was entranced by the "enigma" image of me; the way I came close, but just wouldn't let him into my head. I don't think I loved him. Not as much as I loved what was inside my head.

  7. #17
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    Thanks, all, for your insights. I am new to the forum and comparatively new to the enneagram, but have gained a lot from studying the types, their motivations, and our relationships.

    I found this thread from a google search, and came here because I am trying to save a relationship with a 4w5 who I love very much. So much of what you've all said (maybe especially Adasta and OrangeAppled) rings true; I see and feel those same patterns.

    Would anyone be willing to say more about what helps you to feel connection, or to feel safe enough to allow connection, and the ways in which you find it most important to connect? I am trying to be present and patient and to hold the space for my 4, but I wish that there was more I could do to help her to open up and let herself go deeper. I want that connection too, very much, but it feels like she's simultaneously longing for something and closing herself off to it.

    Thanks to you all again.
    Last edited by spherey; 09-25-2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #18
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    I'm almost 33. I had a two-year relationship when I was 29, and we knew it was "temporary" from day one. I've left everyone else within a couple months, or simply never committed in the first place. I've dated gorgeous, beautiful, brilliant, employed, well-mannered men. I've received genuine marriage proposals.. more than I care to admit, considering that I'm usually single and I probably need to own up to the fact that I will simply never be satisfied; no one will ever be 'enough.'

    I only recently realized I was a 4.. I had mistyped at id types because of my drive, dedication to work, sexual lust, energy etc. I've dated other 4s and those are the only people who were more difficult than I was and really got under my skin. A 4w5 managed to break my heart.

    I have lots of lust and a strong intimacy drive, but after the passion 'fades' - which only takes a couple months - I am prone to go back to my old ways - I like doing most things alone, I don't like anyone asking me what time I'm coming home, I'm hopelessly independent, I need lots of time alone with my creative projects, I need my daily long walks with headphones, I prefer going to social events by myself, I need full control of my eating habits and times, etc.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  9. #19
    Senior Member boondocked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spherey View Post
    Thanks, all, for your insights. I am new to the forum and comparatively new to the enneagram, but have gained a lot from studying the types, their motivations, and our relationships.

    I found this thread from a google search, and came here because I am trying to save a relationship with a 4w5 who I love very much. So much of what you've all said (maybe especially Adasta and OrangeAppled) rings true; I see and feel those same patterns.

    Would anyone be willing to say more about what helps you to feel connection, or to feel safe enough to allow connection, and the ways in which you find it most important to connect? I am trying to be present and patient and to hold the space for my 4, but I wish that there was more I could do to help her to open up and let herself go deeper. I want that connection too, very much, but it feels like she's simultaneously longing for something and closing herself off to it.

    Thanks to you all again.
    [Caveat: Not all of this applies to all fours, and not all fours have the same struggles -- I'm really just riffing off of what I've learned in my own life - YMMV]

    I think for the most part, us fours get our satisfaction from intense emotions, and from cottoning ourselves within a heightened atmosphere of our own making. Though it looks volatile, it feels safe.

    Or maybe it's like a greenhouse that we build over the course of our lives, pane by pane, that allows us to control our emotional temperature -- to manufacture the conditions we feel we need to thrive, no matter what the actual elements of our lives -- and then we lock ourselves in. I think (and this is only my opinion!) that in order to be loving partners, we have to get out.

    Does your 4w5 have any creative outlet? If not, she probably needs one. That's one way to get out. To lose yourself in something that isn't yourself. Volunteering is another way. Do it together. Empathy is as strong an emotion as any, and not manufactured from within, but instead drawn out, a natural response to the pain of those around us.

    Or the corollary, surprise her with joy. If she's a four of any wing, she's probably sensitive of beauty. Know what gives you sharp joy, and share it with her. Let her see you feel it too.

    When it's stormy, find a way to let her know that this too shall pass. Remind her, as gently as only you, her partner, can, that feelings are not final.

    Basically, if you work together on her growth (and remember not to neglect your own!), the relationship will improve. Instead of focusing on building the perfect relationship designed to draw her out, help her learn to draw herself out. IF that’s what she wants. If that isn’t what she wants, that’s also okay and perfectly valid, but you have to decide if you can live with that.

    /sprawling, probably mostly personal treatise that I hope does help anyway

  10. #20
    Junior Member mudrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Many of my relationships start out beautifully, and can be very insightful and wonderful for some time.. but eventually the reality of my partner comes shattering down, and I have found very few people that seem to need the intensity and involvement that I prefer. (Only the 2 and the 6 actually). I have often struggled to get my needs met, and I know part of this is learning to detach from my feelings and embrace reality more, but it is definately one of the greatest struggles of my life.
    Story of my life.. Things always start out so great in the beginning when it's all endless fascination, intense involvement, that rush of figuring each other out - but then eventually, people always fall into comfort and complacency. It's so frustrating for me, because that never happens for me. So far, I've only met one person who was able to meet me on that level. Yes, I feel incredibly lucky.

    E4's.. what are your thoughts or experiences with your e-type and others? Do you think there is a natural compatibility between these types?
    I tend to be attracted to reactive (8s and some 6s) & competency types (3s and 1s). I think I just need someone who can mirror my intensity, and strives to keep things exciting, stimulating, to not fall into routine just as much as I do. I think it's more important to look at instinctual stackings with regards to relationship compatibility. I'm personally more attracted to Sx-doms and So/Sx types, because they can see the value and strive towards keeping that spark and intensity, more than Sx-lasters.

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