[Type 4] Conflicts of the 4w3

[Santosha]

Asking input from you other 4w3'ers.

I read at some point (and I'm too lazy to go back and dig it up - I assume you probably came across it as well) that the 4w3 e-type might be one of the most conflicted of all the types, simply because the nature of 3 and 4 is so VERY different. I have personally found this to be the case.

I am curious about what kinds of inner battles take place in you guys. THe more examples you can give that shows how the conflict manifests in concrete fashion, the better.

No, I'm not looking at others weaknesses to feel better, scrap that idea. What I am really hoping for here, is some insight on how some of the more aligned 4w3's have managed to accomplish it. I also want to see if the conflicts we have are similar.

E3 Vs E4 reference

self assured vs. self aware
charming - charming
ambitious vs authentic
outgoing vs reserved
competent vs witholding self and at times, melancholy
energetic vs mellow
status conscious vs self conscious
advancement driven vs individually driven
define life by success vs define life by being different
disconnects with true feelings and mirrors environement vs connects to true feelings and often rejects status quo environement

Now I realize these charactoristics are not all in opposition, some traits can co exist with others.. but many of them definately seem to be at odds.

I am personally baffled at how these two people can both reside inside myself, yet they do. I try to understand the blending, but it seems to be so circumstantial. The only thing that I'm sure of is that I often wear my e3 to the world and my e4 to those in my very close inner circle. This just doesn't align well with my inner 4, though the 3 certainly doesn't mind =D

Anyhow, add whatever you'd like to. What is your experience in being 4w3?

 

[Santosha]

"4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they’re part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as “inauthentic”. They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they’d have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3′s more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the “keeping it real” crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves."


here is the snippet I found about the opposition. I hate reading it honestly, because I want a solution. I wan't someone to write a whole book on helpful ways to balance it.

 

[Savage Idealist]

I too feel a sense of conflict in my being; I want to be able to be who I am, but at the same time I don't want to have everyone mock and hate me; I want authenticicty and appreciation without compromise. Of course I sometimes whether such a goal is truly attainable, and sometimes I think to myself 'Well since the only recognition that I really care about is my life goal to be remembered in the history books, maybe contemporary appreciation isn't of value'. Although I tend to shut out and hide myself more in public, being reserved except around those whom I'm really close, which is more of a core 4 tendency; although once I do grow out of my shell, I'm still not sure how much of my true self I can reveal, but ultimately that is just a fact in life I may have to live with; I have the existential freedom to choose what's of greater value to me.

Also, I know even if I open up completely and disgust and anger other people, that this is part of life; one cannot please everyone, as one will always have enemies who despise them. But just as there are some who will mock my image, there may be that many more who do accept me for what I am. I know my immedaite family will always accept my dorky demeanor, even if I'm completely weird or wear a cowboy hat (yes I seriously wear one). If I can find a few select group of people though, or maybe even one person, whom appreciaties my authentic being, then that actually may just be enough for me.

 

[7legion77]

Realizations of a true 4w3

I kept trying to figure out if I was a 4w5 or a 4w3. There is a very analytical and intellectual side to my personality, but if I was a true 4w5 I would be more consistent in actually delivering in this regard.
Recently I got a new job and I'm surprised at how, while in private life I am quite the loner, when put under the spotlight I tap into a kind of unshakable assertiveness and friendly demeanor. This is the dilemma of the 4w3, we are so self-conscious that we can actually turn this self-consciousness inside out and use it to charm people, where from the outside they see as uniquely poignant and even scintillating, whilst not realizing that it all comes from such a tormented and self-doubting source.
The social side of my persona is more of a performance; a show; and it runs on a limited battery! I combine the 4's distinct aesthetic sense and the 3's (secretly shaky) confidence to charm people, and I am often surprised at how easily this is done. I keep thinking that socializing, the beast that I've struggled with all my life, is supposed to be harder than this! I have surprised myself by how I've become an exceptionally good salesman, due to employing my 4's intuition to genuinely convince customers.

If I was a 4w5 I would be more disciplined and consistent in my intellectual pursuits, which I often wish I was. However, my weak 5 wing can only sustain this for so long, before I inevitably fall for the superficial.

I think that's what stands out about a 4w3: he is able to find passion and energy through beauty that doesn't have to have meaning. Therefore, we really aren't as torn and contradictory as defined; instead, we can totally appreciate beauty even if it comes from a shallow source. (which is why I think Lindsay Lohan is hot) We have a streak of arrogance, that can be perceived by others as fakeness, although once the curtains close we are veritably beset by slight embarrassment over how "fake" we've been acting.

 

[Domino]

self assured vs. self aware

My ENFP twin tells me that I have a very concrete and absolute sense of "me-ness", like a baseball bat to the face, that's mixed with a great deal of uncertainty and shyness. I seem confident in many ways, and I'm not sure where this comes from (my left kidney is the leading suspect) because I find myself hiding behind my sister and others frequently, and I really have to "be in a mood" to shift into my 3 and grab someone/something by the balls. I find anger motivational. I also find my 3 comes out strong when I'm alone and need to turn on the charm to get things done. My 3 gets stymied by the presence of those who know me well, like I'm excruciatingly aware that I'm using a body shield or persona (I say persona without the context of hypocrisy and falseness. I'm not pretending to be someone else. I'm activating the wing to better defend or support me.)

charming - charming

I bounce between "put together" and outright dopiness. I stunned my sister last night by saying she was the one who taught me to wash my ears. She said, "But they're attached to your head" and I said, "Yes, but I forget about them."

ambitious vs authentic

This is a very big conflict between my primary self and my wing. I want to be "the best" but not at someone else's expense. I don't step on people. However, I won't be swayed from my goal, even if it means downshifting and utilizing ALL the gears I have in the transmission. Maybe it's not my primary self getting things done in the external world, but I need the muscle. Know what I mean?

outgoing vs reserved

I'm geared to need and readily enjoy the company of others, while being a hermit. I would wither up out in the country, but I isolate myself. WTH?

competent vs witholding self and at times, melancholy

I'm very weirdly private and it's difficult to get down to where I live. Only a few people know me so well and I don't necessarily do it on purpose. My ENFP sister's transparency makes me wild with fear for her.

energetic vs mellow

I'm a storm cloud piddling rain and pink lightning bolts. I'm roiled by my emotions so much I look/sound schizophrenic to those who don't know me.

status conscious vs self conscious

This one is so horrible I can hardly go into it.

When I'm mirroring the environment, I'm in a secondary mode, but to me, deep inside, I feel like I only *look* like one of the cool kids. I won't leave the house without make-up on (there's a really long story behind this that I really can't go into). I want to look "defensible". I feel that my sister is authentic and that I'm just a fraud that no one has found out yet. I wear many masks in the basic guise of my face, but just enough removed to protect me. My 3 guards the door so my 4 won't get hurt over and over.

I can't expose myself without grave harm. I have the added conflict of being a SX. I want to pull people and things inside myself, but there's so much risk involved.

 

[typologywhore]

outgoing vs reserved. Mmm, yeah, this is a funny one. I enjoy being outgoing very much, but there are some circumstances where I'll just clam up and be extremely reserved/self-contained (tho' I resort to this less as my confidence grows)-
>around people I worry are looking down on me socially, especially "in-crowd"-type people
>after being around people for too long...I kinda run outta outgoing-ness, lol
>if I feel someone is just not "getting me", i.e. not mirroring me properly; or is bashing things I like [and therefore bashing me too]. These hurt like a bitch, so I'll withdraw as fast as I can.

Status conscious vs self conscious can be a bitch, especially when they gang up on you OwO I'm pretty sure that what's caused me to spend the majority of my adolescence eaten up with social anxiety and avoidance. Together they can bring down this fog of hyper-sensitivity to every aspect of social interaction, and every nuance of one's own behaviour/responses: it's all "Why is she saying that? Is she suggesting I'm inferior to her? How dare she...", "Hmm, okay, now what does he expect me to say to that...I'd better behave just as he wants or he'll hate me...", "Oh no, I can't believe I just said that, it sounded so awkward and incapable, I bet now they all think I'm pathetic...", and on and on and on

self assured vs. self aware I'd've thought these attributes would potentially combine very well. They would fortify one another and create a solid foundation for self-confidence and self-esteem. Perhaps this is the positive/healthy flip-side of the previous pair?

define life by success x define life by being different = define life by becoming successful at something that marks you out as different?

disconnects with true feelings and mirrors environement vs connects to true feelings and often rejects status quo environment Gah, yes, potential problem here fo' sho'. I certainly used to be prey to this. It made me feel like there was this huge, unbreachable gulf between my felt self and the facade I presented (felt I had to present or people would see how ugly I was and reject me) to the world. My 3 needs were repressed by the 4 shouting "OMG THAT'S SO SHALLOW YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO WANT THAT, BITCH" and they went kinda underground, manifesting in extreme people-pleasing and a semi-conscious, really poisonous competitiveness and violent dismissal of the value of the social sphere.

I want to be able to be who I am, but at the same time I don't want to have everyone mock and hate me; I want authenticicty and appreciation without compromise.

+1

I'm geared to need and readily enjoy the company of others, while being a hermit. I would wither up out in the country, but I isolate myself. WTH?

The same for me ABSOLUTELY, I've come to the very same conclusion myself, haha! It's such a trippy thing I love communicating with others; I need the mirroring that honest, free interaction can provide, in order to feel empowered and real. And I need the kick of really full-on social immersion, sometimes. But at the same time I don't feel comfortable with/capable of being too much "out in the world". Hence I spend a lot of time on forums, chat-rooms, and other "halfway house"-type forms of communication, as this allows me to simultaneously introspect and satisfy that need for the fun of interaction.

 

[SilkRoad]

I have wondered about this - very interested in it though I am not a 4 (sorry for jumping in).

I think one of my best friends (who I'm afraid I've been venting about a bit on this forum, due to some ongoing frustrations) is very likely a 4w3 (xNFP). She seems like a quintessential 4, and I don't see her so much as 4w5. She is passionate and idealistic, very driven, doesn't do anything by half measures, comes across to me as almost venerating powerful (and often destructive) emotions, wants to find a place to belong (both figuratively and literally) but also is attached to being "different" and not fitting in, can be quite career-focused though it's not usually the dominant force in her life (she's a harder worker than I am, I'm pretty sure...I try to do a good job, but seldom care enough to really knock myself out working)...etc.

I would have thought that you guys would be most commonly sx-first - and sx/sp seems the most conflicted. I also tend to think my friend is sx/sp (longing to connect with others, especially/mainly romantically, but also extremely protective of privacy and personal space.) Am I right about that? What do you think?

 

[typologywhore]

From the way you've described her it sounds likely

I would have thought that you guys would be most commonly sx-first - and sx/sp seems the most conflicted. I also tend to think my friend is sx/sp (longing to connect with others, especially/mainly romantically, but also extremely protective of privacy and personal space.) Am I right about that? What do you think?

Hmm, that's interesting. The sx energy does seem to sort of chime well with lots of 4w3 issues and tendencies. I think we could definitely say that a sx-first 4w3 will come across as the "most 4w3" 4w3, haha And my guess is that other subtypes will mute/modify the 4w3 characteristics the descriptions are based on. So I could imagine there being more sx-firsts, and those leading with sp or so being rarer.

 

[Richardsen]

From the way you've described her it sounds likely



Hmm, that's interesting. The sx energy does seem to sort of chime well with lots of 4w3 issues and tendencies. I think we could definitely say that a sx-first 4w3 will come across as the "most 4w3" 4w3, haha And my guess is that other subtypes will mute/modify the 4w3 characteristics the descriptions are based on. So I could imagine there being more sx-firsts, and those leading with sp or so being rarer.

Not very much man... Intensity can come accross with 4w5s too.
I know a So/Sp 4w3 who can be easily mistyped as a 3. I knew another So/Sx 4 who is very 3ish too. The two share the need to promote themselves and their individuality in their own way. But they actually do this... And very well.
The Sp first 4s I dont know too much.
Im a Sx/Sp 4w5 and I dont feel related at all with E3. Im much more reclusive and non-productive. But at the same time Im pretty sure that my intensity is very noticeably to another people.

 

[foxonstilts]

I know a 4w3 and his w3 influences him so that, in his words, he feels like he "has something to prove" to the world. Also, she has low self-esteem but a very confident facade/ego.

Not being one, I can't really talk about the conflict, only comment on what I've been told about it.

 

[Domino]

My sister has called me a shy volcano.

 

[brainheart]

My 3 guards the door so my 4 won't get hurt over and over.

Interesting. My five wing works the same way. (I think my 1 gut does lots of guarding, too.) Problem is, if the door's guarded all the time it's pretty hard to have any action going on.

I can't expose myself without grave harm. I have the added conflict of being a SX. I want to pull people and things inside myself, but there's so much risk involved.

I hear that.

 

[21%]

Not a 4w3 either, but I can imagine how it can be very hard. Fours need to feel unique and authentic, but at the same time, the Three wing compels them to look for acceptance as well. These things sometimes do not go together. What if people decide they don't like your 'authentic, unique' self? Do you put up a facade or do you insist on being your true self and be rejected? It can become a lose-lose situation

 

[animenagai]

I know a 4w3 and his w3 influences him so that, in his words, he feels like he "has something to prove" to the world. Also, she has low self-esteem but a very confident facade/ego.

Not being one, I can't really talk about the conflict, only comment on what I've been told about it.

That would be accurate. No matter what I'm doing, I feel like I have to prove myself. This happens with school, work, general socialising, hobbies... list goes on. I have to constantly tell myself to let my ego go and just live a little. I'm developing my natural 9 side a bit more and it's definitely better now, but yeah, that's a legit description.

 

[brainheart]

I've been mulling over this thread and I really see this 4 hiding behind the three facade manifest in a 4w3 musician I happen to really dig. In his music, writing, all you really see is the four, and I relate to him so absurdly well, it's like we're soul mates, but then in concerts the three dominates. He becomes this showman/ crowd pleaser and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know he's hiding, protecting himself, but hiding behind three is so different than hiding behind five, like I do. It seems so fake, while when you withdraw (as I do) it seems more authentic, I guess. You're not prostituting yourself for the throngs.

The three fixation is just a hard one for me to grasp, because I really do go the opposite direction: crowd-pleaser vs feeling the pull to do the opposite of what the crowd wants.

 

[animenagai]

I've been mulling over this thread and I really see this 4 hiding behind the three facade manifest in a 4w3 musician I happen to really dig. In his music, writing, all you really see is the four, and I relate to him so absurdly well, it's like we're soul mates, but then in concerts the three dominates. He becomes this showman/ crowd pleaser and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know he's hiding, protecting himself, but hiding behind three is so different than hiding behind five, like I do. It seems so fake, while when you withdraw (as I do) it seems more authentic, I guess. You're not prostituting yourself for the throngs.

The three fixation is just a hard one for me to grasp, because I really do go the opposite direction: crowd-pleaser vs feeling the pull to do the opposite of what the crowd wants.

 

[brainheart]

^ that sounded ruder than I meant it to. I think many 4w3s are amazing, I envy their drive and ability to accomplish. And their social skills. I lack the ability to say things gracefully. Often.

I was just trying to say it's a foreign orientation to me, the w3. And sometimes it seems glaringly contradictory to the 4, I guess the active extroversion vs the withdrawal. It must be a weird dichotomy to feel. Then again, though, my head and heart engage in constant fisticuffs so it's not like four and five live in perfect harmony, either.

 

[Stansmith]

Not a 4w3, but this is how I relate to it through my fix:

self assured vs. self aware

People describe me as vain, delicate or 'posh', but I feel exceptionally awkward.

charming - charming

I'm either the most charming man in the room, or the least.

ambitious vs authentic

A part of me wants material success, but I also desire actualization and a sense that I'm inherently separate from whatever profession or craft that I'm involved in. Ideally, I would want to be known by my name, or presence, not as some architect or filmmaker.

outgoing vs reserved

Sure.

competent vs witholding self and at times, melancholy

More melancholy, but I can appear competent.

energetic vs mellow

Yes.

status conscious vs self conscious

Too self conscious to gain any sort of status.

advancement driven vs individually driven

Yes.

define life by success vs define life by being different

Mhmm. By definition, I would say I want to live a life of wonder, Beauty and transcendence, and success will obviously be necessary to some extent. I would even interpret 'success' as becoming an actualized individual.


disconnects with true feelings and mirrors environement vs connects to true feelings and often rejects status quo environement

I'm always focused on my own feelings.

 

[Forever]

I feel that this is the better forum to see how I can better improve myself. Just reading the INFJ forums just doesn't get me too far. I am glad that there are other people who have their extremes oppose each other but want to compliment every one of them as well. It sometimes can be a very rewarding thing, but often I feel like I'm always "out of place" and nobody wants to stay with me to be their friend.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Being a 4w3 is the most rediculous thing to me. I'm always conflicted! I can put on that charm and grace and attract many people but when I realise that I haven't been true to who I am it bothers me. It's all a show. I'm actually insecure and want others to knock my walls down but you won't know it because I'm trying to make everyone believe I'm this out going and confident woman so that I'll be accepted. It goes back and forth depending on my over all health. In reality, I just want to be known and understood with all my imperfections.