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  1. #11
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post

    Fours are in the reactive triad (together with types 6 and 8), thus they want an emotional response from others when they are upset about something. Fives are in the competency triad (including types 1 and 3) and strive to approach problem solving with a logical and impersonal attitude.

    Fours are histrionic and dramatic, Fives schizoid and detached.
    I think it's important to emphasize the point 'when they are upset about something', as far as fours go. People tend to have this misconception that fours are emotional and dramatic all the time, but it's a behavior which (especially for a 4w5) will likely not be so apparent unless they are feeling vulnerable/ in the unhealthy levels.

  2. #12
    Junior Member Nymma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Fours base their identity on what differentiates them from others, which is simultaneously their source of their shame and justification of their existence. They wear their uniqueness with pride buit secretly long for the component they believe is missing in them but others possess. They hold an almost aggressive stance against anything "normal" or "mundane". .
    That...is EXACTLY the kind of mindset I have about existence. I see uniqueness as the essence of meaning. So everything not unique I see as insignifiant. I have the purest disdain for normality. How can someone or something mean anything if they're common or average? I judge myself mainly on my uniqueness. If I think I am not unique enough, I go through periods of self-hate, and I show off (mostly to myself but to the world as well) what uniqueness I can find in myself. (But I do think I was born different, and I think I am more unique than most people. I take it for granted, but when an equally unique person comes along, I have the need to surpass his/her uniqueness to keep my uniqueness because uniqueness, like everything else, is relative, and traits are defined by comparisons).

    I also think I am lacking in many ways others do not, and I have a sort of...countershame response to it. Authentic no matter what, but always on the lookout for being fulfilled whithin an ideal identity, ideal connection to life in one way or another.(may it be in some experience, person, work or hobby). I fantasize about what I don't have, I turn into an envious person, but then I pity and sort of look down on those persons at the same time. I feel like I both love and hate many things. I envy and disdain the things I envy and feel self-disdain for feeling envy in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Fives feel as if the world demands too much, and their response is to withdraw and hoard knowledge in order to prepare for anything that might be dangerous to them. This can lead to useless specialization in areas that are highly impractical and doesn't really help them function in the real world. They don't deal with emotion publicly, but in solitude. .
    All of that is also true with me. I live like a recluse, withdrawing from the outer world to protect myself. Collecting knowledge makes me feel confident, more competent, like I can handle more things. I can be dramatic( in positive ways and negative ways) when I'm with many people, but I never would create scenes in public places like restaurants or things like that--I think it's childish and the rest of the world don't need to know about private matters. I sort of...unvoluntarily show my emotions to people. I hate being intruded upon, and I want to avoid all the fakely sympathic "awws" or/and "talk to me-are you OKaaaayy" annoyance, so I deal with it by trying to hide my tears if I am on the verge of breaking down. It's humiliating to me to cry in front of people. I am dramatic, but attempt to(it rarely works) appear detached when I'm falling apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Fours are in the reactive triad (together with types 6 and 8), thus they want an emotional response from others when they are upset about something. Fives are in the competency triad (including types 1 and 3) and strive to approach problem solving with a logical and impersonal attitude.

    Fours are histrionic and dramatic, Fives schizoid and detached.
    Well, I had previously thought that I didn't belong in the emotionally reactive triad, but in fact, I had the wrong definition of reactive triad. (I had thought it was a triad for...overly dramatic, mood swinging people. I have seen far far far worst than myself in those areas, so in comparison, I didn't see myself having those traits).I could see myself as an emotionally reactive person, yes. But then, I can also see myself as being in the competency triad. When my friends come to me with a problem, I adopt a logical and impersonal air( and I wince at how cold-hearted I may have sounded.) I intellectualize everything. I try to go for the logical answer, but I end up selecting what "feels right" at the time. My moods have a great influence on my choices. Am very spontaneous. Honestly, associating "detachment" and "emotional" to me would kind of be both true, even if it doesn't make sense. In some ways, I am detached, in other ways I am not. I'm filled with contradictions.

  3. #13
    Junior Member Nymma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I think it's important to emphasize the point 'when they are upset about something', as far as fours go. People tend to have this misconception that fours are emotional and dramatic all the time, but it's a behavior which (especially for a 4w5) will likely not be so apparent unless they are feeling vulnerable/ in the unhealthy levels.
    YES! Thank you. Some things that have made me doubt I was a Four in the past are that I don't tend to be all sentimental and "Feely-Feely" at all. I have a distaste for that, actually. And I hate negative dramatic displays(sometimes, just sometimes, I tend to give in to ridiculous drama(mostly with my parents, though) but I usually don't. I am theatrical by nature, so I tend to express myself positively(when I say positively, I mean, expressing myself without creating childish drama).But yeah, doing immature, out of control scenes in front of everyone is not the way I function. Whining and doing stuff for attention is a behavior I find particularly repulsive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymma View Post
    Re: goals--aww

    5w4 4w3...hmm, I have actually never thought of that option. I was going for a 4w5 7w6 1w9 tritype, but I suppose 4w3 5w4 1w9 or even 5w4 4w3 1w9 would be possible too. I had the greatest trouble deciding if my Head fix was a Seven or a Five... How can you tell the difference between a Seven integrated to Five and a Five disintegrated to Seven? And from a One disintegrated to four an a Four integrated to One? I have lots and lots of "One traits", more than I see in fellow Fours, so I was wondering...
    It depends on how one acts when unhealthy; disintegrating into another type will reveal the worst behaviors of that type; an unhealthy 1 will become moody, hypersensitive, and overemotional, where as a four intergrating into healthy 1 levels will be much more principled and ethical. It's imperative to analyze the differences of behavior when one is stressed to when one is complacent/average; who do you act differently when you're stressed?

    And while I'm asking the 47 comprehension questions, do you know something helpful about distinguishing a Five from a Four? Particularly between 4w5 and 5w4. Because I feel like both enneatypes fit me like a glove.
    @Catharsis gave an excellent explanation between the two; these descriptions should also help as well:

    4w5
    Healthy side of this wing brings a withdrawn, complex creativity. May be somewhat intellectual but have exceptional depth of feeling and insight. Very much their own person; original and idiosyncratic. Have a spiritual and aesthetic openness. Will find multiple levels of meaning to most events. May have a strong need and ability to pour themselves into artistic creations. Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total. When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death.
    5w4
    The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing. Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.
    Thanks a lot for all your help so far--you're a really helpful poster
    Sure thing, you're welcome, and thank you

  5. #15
    Junior Member Nymma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    It depends on how one acts when unhealthy; disintegrating into another type will reveal the worst behaviors of that type; an unhealthy 1 will become moody, hypersensitive, and overemotional, where as a four intergrating into healthy 1 levels will be much more principled and ethical. It's imperative to analyze the differences of behavior when one is stressed to when one is complacent/average; who do you act differently when you're stressed?
    Well, no matter how unealthy I am, you can always count on me to be ethical, to do the right thing. Through my unealthy periods and heatlhy phases, my principles were always strong...I rarely went against my values, but maybe it's more of a Fi thing than a One thing. I don't know. I sometimes suspect I am a One because I'm much more justice driven than all of the Fours I have seen/met(or at least, none of the Fours anywhere have given any indication of being interested in changing the world like I am...). Although 4s SO/SP are apparently very One-ish, if one beleives the description. I need to act in a very moral way all the time--it's as easy as breathing.

    I was born a HSP, so hypersensitivity and being moody are normal behavior for me-they're part of me, it's not like I can control or change it. I would like to be more in control of my emotions,(when I'm surrounded by people, I mean) but it's just impossible for me to do that. If I could have a permanent poker face and still feel deeply as I do, it would be perfect. I wouldn't survive without feeling powerfully-emptiness would be the worst thing to have. **shudders**.

    When I'm stressed, I self-indulge a lot(still do when I'm not, but it gets extremly excessive when I'm unealthy), I procrastinate even more than I do and sort of live for fun. I just do everything in excess, I get impulsive a lot. Also, I remember, when I was depressed, I annoyed my friends(they told me that, and I wasn't too impressed with them for saying so) with my problems a lot(too much, they said), I was obsessed, eternally fixated on the negative things in my life(it's a tendency regardless of my unealthy states but it worsens when I'm down), I engaged into self-harm activities, I had morbid daydreaming about "getting revenge", I, eh, sort of dropped self-harm hints when teachers or friends were nearby. I was mad that they didn't noticed, or didn't seem to care, but when they "tried to help me", I was even madder, and I ended up ridiculing the vice-principal by pretending he had lied about my self-harming tendencies. I made her look like a fool, like a worrywart, like a really stupid person. I convinced my parents of it. I guess I can get very manipulative and secretly needy but trying to look like I am not, like I need no one. It's like I wanted help but didn't at the same time. It's..weird.

    That was the first time I actually hated someone(the vice principal) and the only time I remember breaking my ethics(pretending she had lied--I usually am very honest, manipulating people(am very against that behavior), etc. I could not recognize myself. I feel she had no buisness telling me to improve or to stop what I was doing, she made me feel miniscule small, and she created in myself more shame than I had(even though I was practically dripping with shame at that time, and frankly, for nearly all my life) before I entered her office(some student reported my harming tendencies). I don't care if it was her stupid job to talk to me--it's my life, I do what I do with it, and I have the right to think what I want of myself--if I'm not satisfied with myself, it's my choice, it's my feelings and the hell with everybody's opinion! I have developped a hate of psyshologists and refused to see any more of those bastards. She didn't understand me very well(no one really does)and I hated her for trying when I didn't want her to.

    One issue I have with possibly being a One is that I am much more identity-focused than I am justice-focused. Both are very important to me, but identity comes first. That sorts of points towards Three or Four.



    @Catharsis gave an excellent explanation between the two; these descriptions should also help as well:
    [/QUOTE]


    Both descriptions fit me well. Too well. I cannot in good conscience pick one of them.

  6. #16
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Here, take this test. Don't ponder over your answer, just go with your gut and choose what answer immediately stands out to you. With enough self-awareness, it should give some direction to your true type.

    http://www.okcupid.com/tests/the-qui...enneagram-test
    INFP 5w4 Sx/So

  7. #17
    Junior Member Nymma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Here, take this test. Don't ponder over your answer, just go with your gut and choose what answer immediately stands out to you. With enough self-awareness, it should give some direction to your true type.

    http://www.okcupid.com/tests/the-qui...enneagram-test
    No need to worry about my self-awareness--I know everything about me. OK, here goes...

    Your result for The Quick & Painless ENNEAGRAM Test ...

    4- the Individualist
    Thanks for taking the test !



    "I am unique"
    Romantics have sensitive feelings and are warm and perceptive.



    How to Get Along with Me

    • Give me plenty of compliments. They mean a lot to me.

    • Be a supportive friend or partner. Help me to learn to love and value myself.

    • Respect me for my special gifts of intuition and vision.

    • Though I don't always want to be cheered up when I'm feeling melancholy, I sometimes like to have someone lighten me up a little.

    • Don't tell me I'm too sensitive or that I'm overreacting!



    What I Like About Being a FOUR

    • my ability to find meaning in life and to experience feeling at a deep level

    • my ability to establish warm connections with people

    • admiring what is noble, truthful, and beautiful in life

    • my creativity, intuition, and sense of humor

    • being unique and being seen as unique by others

    • having aesthetic sensibilities

    • being able to easily pick up the feelings of people around me



    What's Hard About Being a FOUR

    • experiencing dark moods of emptiness and despair

    • feelings of self-hatred and shame; believing I don't deserve to be loved

    • feeling guilty when I disappoint people

    • feeling hurt or attacked when someone misunderstands me

    • expecting too much from myself and life

    • fearing being abandoned

    • obsessing over resentments

    • longing for what I don't have



    FOURs as Children Often

    • have active imaginations: play creatively alone or organize playmates in original games

    • are very sensitive

    • feel that they don't fit in

    • believe they are missing something that other people have

    • attach themselves to idealized teachers, heroes, artists, etc.

    • become antiauthoritarian or rebellious when criticized or not understood

    • feel lonely or abandoned (perhaps as a result of a death or their parents' divorce)



    FOURs as Parents

    • help their children become who they really are

    • support their children's creativity and originality

    • are good at helping their children get in touch with their feelings

    • are sometimes overly critical or overly protective

    • are usually very good with children if not too self-absorbed

    -----------

    Not to criticize the test, but it seemed rather short...Ah well, I definitly identify with my result.

    Upon discovering the enneagram theory, I had identified as a 4w5. I never really doubted my type until I received feedback that my pattern was more 3w4 alike. The arguments of that person were logical, so it convinced me and I switched to 3w4. It was not long before I found many things that just...didn't fit. I just didn't relate to the unealthy states or healthy states of a Three, I am an obvious withdrawn, not an assertive, and on and on. Then, I settled for being an "unknown" and collected avidly enneatype info, evaluating each type in depth and trying to see ways I could relate to them all, no matter how slims the chances were I was such an such type. It probably wasn't the brightest idea, since it confused me and now I think I'm either a Four, Three, Five, Seven, or One. The process of elimination is rather slow.

    Anyway..I made another thread before making this one and so far everyone has typed me as a 4w5. Honestly, I feel like it's what I am, a 4w5. But I don't want to settle for it in case it's a mistype. I'm leaning towards 4w5 7w6 1w9 at the moment. It would certainly explain why I see myself as all those types I have mentioned above. Fours, healthy ones, experience a connection to One, and 1w9 being in my tritype as well as helped by Fi used dominantly would make me a more justice driven Four than most. Five as a second motivation as my wing and my Seven fix integration to Five would explain how much I relate to eneatype 5w4, and 7w6 as the Head fix explains the Seven traits I have. In theory, everyone has two wings, but only(usually) one dominant one,so my w3 might just be well developped. Yup,
    4w5 7w6 1w9 would sum up all my motivations and to which degree they are experienced.

    I know my greatest need is to be unique, authentically. I know my greatest focus is on my identity and how to express myself, how to create things(mainly through writing) that will convey my self-meaning, and the meaning I find in the world. Without those,I don't see the point of being alive.

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    @Nymma: core 4w5 sounds about right from what you posted; I'd say that 4w5 > 7w6 > 1w9 probably does fit you, although the order of the last two may vary. If I come across any other additional/useful information regarding stress points and enneagram, I'll be sure to post it.

  9. #19
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Enneagram isn't about boxing in your type but to let go of your basic fear and be able to experience the moods and feelings of all types, thus tritypes are only limiting and has no place in enneagram theory.

  10. #20
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    For a while, I didn't even believe in wings because I didn't identify with 6w5 or 6w7 descriptions.

    My wing is probably very slightly towards 5. It is more 5 than 7. Neither one really fits though.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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