[Type 8] Unhealthy 8s.. and 8s in love

[ICUP]

My first tactic wasnt "i want to help"; it was exactly what you're doing; reason, resources, proving that i am right, showing truth - but nothing of it works, i am not the first one to try... then i switched to "i am trying to help" because i thought maybe I can trick him with feelery approach haha

LoL.... the only thing that I have found that works on that end is actually crying. But not fake crying, actually crying out of frustration lol..... being at the honest end of your rope on the issue sometimes will turn it around. Although I would not recommend it.... it has only happened once in my own relationship, but when it did, and I put my foot down, and threatened to leave and meant it, things changed. I don't think he knew how important this issue was to me.

Actually, Vala's stuff sounds like a good try for entp's. They have Fe......so I think yes, different arguments would work for you.

My S.O., being entj, has very strong ethics when it comes to work, so I think that's where entj/entp might differ in another way as well. My entp brother hates work, but I don't think he has ever refused to work. He just works and suffers through it. He has the same arguments as alot of entp's...... that he can never find a place where he can use his full potential (and he's right, he hasn't).

 

[kyuuei]

How does an unhealthy 8 look like ?

In general, what are your experiences with 8s and love? Especially unhealthy ones.

I dont know many 8s, only one quite well. I am pretty shocked how difficult they can be when unhealthy. There seems to be no right move around them. Everything is a sign that you're enemy. Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"

Average unhealthy -- To me.. they argue too much.. they let others control their emotions, and the easiest one to control is anger.. so rebelling, and arguing, and staking out for the sake of it all come to mind. Arguing about things that don't really matter. They're frustrated all the time, but they can't see that it is them letting go of that control themselves.. so they're confused by the true source of their frustration. Communication is extremely difficult. They could feel belittled by things that are genuine signs of love and affection.

To me, super unhealthy 8s are those that THINK they're in the healthy parameters. I think any 8 that feels they're in that top-number-1 healthy factor need to re-evaluate themselves. The ones that think they're knights in shining armor, and have delusions of saving everyone, but the reality is they have such little control over reality that they lie to themselves to feign control. Reality is too harsh for them, a lack of control over themselves and others has spiraled outside of comfortable measures, and this manifests in many ways. Communication might as well be filed under mission impossible, and they won't listen to anyone. Anything can be preceived as weakness and attempting to control them.. so they push away everyone, and make enemies out of friends.

I don't know how healthy or unhealthy I am.. but I can say my habits.

When I am in love.. I become super polite. Almost gentlemanly, especially in public, I treat them like I'm trying to ask them to waltz with me at a big expensive dinner for the rich and famous. I'm not one to show public displays of affection at all.. I'm reminded of the driver in The Princess Diaries.. where you could tell he cared for the queen, but he never showed it.. you always just sorta knew from the tone he set. It's obvious who I am interested in, I don't make that a secret, but my actions don't quite reflect that.. it's something people have to pick up.

I argue. Usually, if I am arguing with someone.. it is because I trust them enough that I can show emotions like that, or I don't know them at all and will probably never encounter them again in my life. To me, anger is the easiest thing for people to control, and I do my best to calm my rage and my temper (which is quite short) and I have several coping mechanisms for ensuring I don't get upset. But I like to argue.. I think the right kind of argument helps sometimes.. but in fear of burning bridges for the sake of arguing, I leave these sort of things to people I trust the most.

I force my SOs to say things for me sometimes. Just the way it is. I don't like to tell people I love them all the time.. I want my actions to speak for me. So they just have to know, which is bad since new relationships mean assuming the wrong things sometimes until they get to know me better.

When someone proves my instincts right. Sometimes I really hate this because I ignore my instincts for the sake of things. I have a guy friend that was SUPER into me.. and my instinct was that he never really desired to be my close friend. But my heart said it's wrong to assume.. and to try anyways. As soon as I start dating another male, suddenly total communication is off the radar. I don't ever hear from him.. It's frustrating to think that I spent time giving people the benefit of the doubt just to avoid being jaded about everything and everyone, but I wasted my time in the process instead of just listening to my instincts.

Probably the most offensive thing for me is when someone does something so blatantly outside of my personality. They assume/say/do something that clues me in that they were never in tune with me in the first place.. Nothing hurts more for me than that.
Them: "NO you dont because you never say it!!"
Me: "I say it everyday. When I did x, I was saying it. When I talked to y for you, I was saying it. Everything I do, I am doing for you.. and for 'it'. How could you possibly come up with any other conclusion?"

I hope this helps.

 

[ICUP]

Average unhealthy -- To me.. they argue too much.. they let others control their emotions, and the easiest one to control is anger.. so rebelling, and arguing, and staking out for the sake of it all come to mind. Arguing about things that don't really matter. They're frustrated all the time, but they can't see that it is them letting go of that control themselves.. so they're confused by the true source of their frustration. Communication is extremely difficult. They could feel belittled by things that are genuine signs of love and affection.

My S.O. can get like this sometimes, and I think it is when something changes in the relationship, like I want to take a little more freedom possibly? He will try to convince me not to do it, and argue about it, sometimes arguing about things that don't matter and taking sides he doesn't believe in. He actually argued when I bought self-help books lol.... I suppose he feels threatened by them, like I might leave or like I am betraying him? But once he sees I am loyal, he will stop arguing and actually start listening when I read the books lol..... I also think he argues when he's had a bad day at work. Maybe he feels out-of-control of the situation at work.
Yes, he can be practically impossible to communicate with sometimes, but he will come-to at some point. He has inner-resistance at first, but he goes off to think alone and then accepts the truth. I do consider him mostly healthy, but he certainly has his moments, like most people do, where he dips into low-average to unhealthy. I think he does well at work, but that he sucks it up sometimes, and that can be trying.

To me, super unhealthy 8s are those that THINK they're in the healthy parameters. I think any 8 that feels they're in that top-number-1 healthy factor need to re-evaluate themselves. The ones that think they're knights in shining armor, and have delusions of saving everyone, but the reality is they have such little control over reality that they lie to themselves to feign control. Reality is too harsh for them, a lack of control over themselves and others has spiraled outside of comfortable measures, and this manifests in many ways. Communication might as well be filed under mission impossible, and they won't listen to anyone. Anything can be preceived as weakness and attempting to control them.. so they push away everyone, and make enemies out of friends.

My 8 certainly has the knight in shining armor thing going on, but I think it is adorable. I don't consider it unhealthy that he wants to play the role of protector of his people.

I argue. Usually, if I am arguing with someone.. it is because I trust them enough that I can show emotions like that, or I don't know them at all and will probably never encounter them again in my life. To me, anger is the easiest thing for people to control, and I do my best to calm my rage and my temper (which is quite short) and I have several coping mechanisms for ensuring I don't get upset. But I like to argue.. I think the right kind of argument helps sometimes.. but in fear of burning bridges for the sake of arguing, I leave these sort of things to people I trust the most.

I wondered why my S.O. argued with me and not with others. LoL...... My S.O. loves to argue... but if you tell him he does, he will say he doesn't. I tell him his main issue is his inner-resistance. He is slowly coming around. Sometimes when I read excerpts about 8's that fit him, he will say that none of it fits him.:yim_rolling_on_the_ I told him I should write the authors to let them know that they were wrong about 8's, that they weren't human because they were too perfect to be so. LoL.....

 

[rav3n]

I find most self-help books to be a mixture of pop-psych and no-brainers. They're not threatening at all. Just kind of dumb.

 

[ICUP]

I find most self-help books to be a mixture of pop-psych and no-brainers. They're not threatening at all. Just kind of dumb.

I'm actually referring to enneagram books. They are found in the self-help section of the bookstore, and enneagram theory is not considered psychology at this point, but self-help.

 

[rav3n]

I'm actually referring to enneagram books. They are found in the self-help section of the bookstore, and enneagram theory is not considered psychology at this point, but self-help.

True, didn't think of enneagram and yet, thinking about it, it definitely belongs in self-help. But then, I don't embrace enneagram in its totality.

My point was that feeling threatened is less likely his problem with self-help books.

 

[ICUP]

True, didn't think of enneagram and yet, thinking about it, it definitely belongs in self-help. But then, I don't embrace enneagram in its totality.

My point was that feeling threatened is less likely his problem with self-help books.

No, I don't think it is either. I think he fears betrayal, and that he is losing control of his situation. It's not necessarily the books, but the fact that I am looking to new resources for answers, and that sets off his radar.

 

[Chloe]

My 8 would use self-help books as toillet paper so its better to keep em away from him !

 

[ICUP]

My 8 would use self-help book as toilet paper so its better to keep em away from him !

I can believe that! My S.O. was that way too until I got into enneagrams, and now when I read it, he sees that some of it is true. He's opened his mind a bit.

 

[Chloe]

actually thats good example to show what i dont understand abou him ; its that i can give him book and say "this book solved all my problems. blah blah" and NO MATTER what is written in the book, even if it really is "answer to all problems" in it, he will refuse it and say its crap! So he doesnt need to open it chances are 0,1% he will agree with anything from it.

 

[ICUP]

actually thats good example to show what i dont understand abou him ; its that i can give him book and say "this book solved all my problems. blah blah" and NO MATTER what is written in the book, even if it really is "answer to all problems" in it, he will refuse it and say its crap! So he doesnt need to open it chances are 0,1% he will agree with anything from it.

I don't give mine the book. I read it while he is there.... I'll use someone else as an example first, and say, "my mother drives me crazy. she does <insert annoying behavior>, and I never understood why. I think I've found the answer, right here," and then proceed to read an excerpt from the book. I won't mention his parts until much later on, when he feels comfortable that the book explains other's actions somewhat. I'll read my stuff out of the book, and talk about what parts apply to me, and what things I could change and work on. And then, after time has passed and the book has become comfortable, I will start reading his stuff. Then when he says it doesn't describe him, I have the argument that we've figured out that it fairly-well describes me and others, so why doesn't it describe him at all? LoL..... and that's when I will say that he is being inner-resistant. He listens slowly but surely. And I keep reading it off-and-on, and he hears more each time. It takes time and energy. It's like leading a horse to water, one baby-step at a time. haha.

My mother is the same way when it comes to accepting the truth about herself and her situations in life. 8 and 9 both have inner-resistance. My mother will even lie and say she doesn't understand things that she can understand, to avoid the topic, and therefore avoid responsibility or the acceptance that there are any negatives or problems at all. I've been unhealthy, gone through a living hell, figured out how to solve it, and done so, and she's still in the stage of trying to accept that there ever was a problem at all. Boy, what help she was.

 

[Mal12345]

How does an unhealthy 8 look like ?

In general, what are your experiences with 8s and love? Especially unhealthy ones.

I dont know many 8s, only one quite well. I am pretty shocked how difficult they can be when unhealthy. There seems to be no right move around them. Everything is a sign that you're enemy. Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"

This is an easy question. Unhealthy 8s have no defense against tears from others. They cannot defend against that kind of emotion, and they are not prepared to deal with it. Anger is easier for them to deal with. Avoiding the type 8 only delays the inevitable. Running away only makes them chase you down like a pit bull, either immediately or later, knowing you have nowhere to hide, and then trapping you in a corner somewhere. But 8s know they cannot win when confronted with crying. This might depend on how unhealthy the 8 is, one who is at level 9 might just crush you into oblivion anyway.

 

[bionic]

My 8 would use self-help books as toillet paper so its better to keep em away from him !

That's exactly what I did today.

 

[Odyne]

Unhealthy 8s are quite destructive. So I suggest to either stay away, run away, or fight back if you think you can. Because they can be quite vengeful, and while an average healthy 8 might fantasize about vengeance when hurt, an unhealthy one might enact it. So, run for your life! lol

As for being in love, I have yet to experience that. But I did feel deeply for some of my partners and I did care for them a great deal. I was awfully caring, and protective. Very supportive and strong like a rock when they needed me. The rough edge tends to soften around them, and I get sweeter and a lot more trusting.

It's a great feeling, I have to say.

 

[6.4]

How does an unhealthy 8 look like ?

How can you not imagine what they're like? They're all in jail. Unhealthy 8's aren't capable of love...

Like Odyne said, "stay away, run away, or fight back if you think you can" is the best advice.


Here's a hollywood style unheathy 8 (NWS, has strong violence) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTAmKmw2_Ts

Real life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OzPfYcpe8c This guy's a complete asshole, and a quite disturbing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW4nDD4keik This guy is unheathly/average so you could have a conversation with him but only if he wants it. There's no point in even dealing with people like this, you'll just end up worse off.


As if an unhealthy 8 gives a shit about love lol...

 

[kyuuei]

My 8 certainly has the knight in shining armor thing going on, but I think it is adorable. I don't consider it unhealthy that he wants to play the role of protector of his people.

I've been told the same before as well.. It isn't unhealthy to want this role, or even to strive for it. What I feel is unhealthy is when they're delusional about it. That they already ARE in that role, all the time.. They start telling people what to do, and demanding and being overly domineering because they're justifying it via their role as the person's protector.. whether they're asking for protection or not, or even if the advice itself makes sense or not.. I have trouble from time to time reminding myself that people do not have my same moral system, and it is important to respect theirs and let them live their lives.

My S.O. loves to argue... but if you tell him he does, he will say he doesn't. .....

I say the same thing all the time.

 

[A window to the soul]

How does an unhealthy 8 look like ?

In general, what are your experiences with 8s and love? Especially unhealthy ones.

I dont know many 8s, only one quite well. I am pretty shocked how difficult they can be when unhealthy. There seems to be no right move around them. Everything is a sign that you're enemy. Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"

Like your run of the mill wife beater. Incapable of love, loving, or being loveable.

Lost.

 

[bionic]

I'm an 8w9.

When I'm in love, I give up a lot of control. I'm already easy going once I bring someone into my circle. Once you're in my circle, you are in for life until you betray me. If someone betrays me in any manner, I usually scream/yell at them as a tactic to keep them away (I scare until they shit themselves) and then I coldly shut the door. I do forgive but I damn sure don't forget.

When I'm unhealthy, I'm aggressive and ruthless. I become far too withdrawn to actually interact with others.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm an 8w9.

When I'm in love, I give up a lot of control. I'm already easy going once I bring someone into my circle. Once you're in my circle, you are in for life until you betray me. If someone betrays me in any manner, I usually scream/yell at them as a tactic to keep them away (I scare until they shit themselves) and then I coldly shut the door. I do forgive but I damn sure don't forget.

When I'm unhealthy, I'm aggressive and ruthless. I become far too withdrawn to actually interact with others.

That's a nice description of deteriorating to 5. Is that why you score yourself as introverted?

 

[Chloe]

Like your run of the mill wife beater. Incapable of love, loving, or being loveable.

Lost.

something like this.....
[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B50RUXbs-8&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]huh[/YOUTUBE]