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  1. #21
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    My first tactic wasnt "i want to help"; it was exactly what you're doing; reason, resources, proving that i am right, showing truth - but nothing of it works, i am not the first one to try... then i switched to "i am trying to help" because i thought maybe I can trick him with feelery approach haha
    LoL.... the only thing that I have found that works on that end is actually crying. But not fake crying, actually crying out of frustration lol..... being at the honest end of your rope on the issue sometimes will turn it around. Although I would not recommend it.... it has only happened once in my own relationship, but when it did, and I put my foot down, and threatened to leave and meant it, things changed. I don't think he knew how important this issue was to me.

    Actually, Vala's stuff sounds like a good try for entp's. They have Fe......so I think yes, different arguments would work for you.

    My S.O., being entj, has very strong ethics when it comes to work, so I think that's where entj/entp might differ in another way as well. My entp brother hates work, but I don't think he has ever refused to work. He just works and suffers through it. He has the same arguments as alot of entp's...... that he can never find a place where he can use his full potential (and he's right, he hasn't).
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  2. #22
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    How does an unhealthy 8 look like ?

    In general, what are your experiences with 8s and love? Especially unhealthy ones.

    I dont know many 8s, only one quite well. I am pretty shocked how difficult they can be when unhealthy. There seems to be no right move around them. Everything is a sign that you're enemy. Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"
    Average unhealthy -- To me.. they argue too much.. they let others control their emotions, and the easiest one to control is anger.. so rebelling, and arguing, and staking out for the sake of it all come to mind. Arguing about things that don't really matter. They're frustrated all the time, but they can't see that it is them letting go of that control themselves.. so they're confused by the true source of their frustration. Communication is extremely difficult. They could feel belittled by things that are genuine signs of love and affection.

    To me, super unhealthy 8s are those that THINK they're in the healthy parameters. I think any 8 that feels they're in that top-number-1 healthy factor need to re-evaluate themselves. The ones that think they're knights in shining armor, and have delusions of saving everyone, but the reality is they have such little control over reality that they lie to themselves to feign control. Reality is too harsh for them, a lack of control over themselves and others has spiraled outside of comfortable measures, and this manifests in many ways. Communication might as well be filed under mission impossible, and they won't listen to anyone. Anything can be preceived as weakness and attempting to control them.. so they push away everyone, and make enemies out of friends.

    I don't know how healthy or unhealthy I am.. but I can say my habits.

    When I am in love.. I become super polite. Almost gentlemanly, especially in public, I treat them like I'm trying to ask them to waltz with me at a big expensive dinner for the rich and famous. I'm not one to show public displays of affection at all.. I'm reminded of the driver in The Princess Diaries.. where you could tell he cared for the queen, but he never showed it.. you always just sorta knew from the tone he set. It's obvious who I am interested in, I don't make that a secret, but my actions don't quite reflect that.. it's something people have to pick up.

    I argue. Usually, if I am arguing with someone.. it is because I trust them enough that I can show emotions like that, or I don't know them at all and will probably never encounter them again in my life. To me, anger is the easiest thing for people to control, and I do my best to calm my rage and my temper (which is quite short) and I have several coping mechanisms for ensuring I don't get upset. But I like to argue.. I think the right kind of argument helps sometimes.. but in fear of burning bridges for the sake of arguing, I leave these sort of things to people I trust the most.

    I force my SOs to say things for me sometimes. Just the way it is. I don't like to tell people I love them all the time.. I want my actions to speak for me. So they just have to know, which is bad since new relationships mean assuming the wrong things sometimes until they get to know me better.

    When someone proves my instincts right. Sometimes I really hate this because I ignore my instincts for the sake of things. I have a guy friend that was SUPER into me.. and my instinct was that he never really desired to be my close friend. But my heart said it's wrong to assume.. and to try anyways. As soon as I start dating another male, suddenly total communication is off the radar. I don't ever hear from him.. It's frustrating to think that I spent time giving people the benefit of the doubt just to avoid being jaded about everything and everyone, but I wasted my time in the process instead of just listening to my instincts.

    Probably the most offensive thing for me is when someone does something so blatantly outside of my personality. They assume/say/do something that clues me in that they were never in tune with me in the first place.. Nothing hurts more for me than that.
    Them: "NO you dont because you never say it!!"
    Me: "I say it everyday. When I did x, I was saying it. When I talked to y for you, I was saying it. Everything I do, I am doing for you.. and for 'it'. How could you possibly come up with any other conclusion?"

    I hope this helps.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Average unhealthy -- To me.. they argue too much.. they let others control their emotions, and the easiest one to control is anger.. so rebelling, and arguing, and staking out for the sake of it all come to mind. Arguing about things that don't really matter. They're frustrated all the time, but they can't see that it is them letting go of that control themselves.. so they're confused by the true source of their frustration. Communication is extremely difficult. They could feel belittled by things that are genuine signs of love and affection.
    My S.O. can get like this sometimes, and I think it is when something changes in the relationship, like I want to take a little more freedom possibly? He will try to convince me not to do it, and argue about it, sometimes arguing about things that don't matter and taking sides he doesn't believe in. He actually argued when I bought self-help books lol.... I suppose he feels threatened by them, like I might leave or like I am betraying him? But once he sees I am loyal, he will stop arguing and actually start listening when I read the books lol..... I also think he argues when he's had a bad day at work. Maybe he feels out-of-control of the situation at work.
    Yes, he can be practically impossible to communicate with sometimes, but he will come-to at some point. He has inner-resistance at first, but he goes off to think alone and then accepts the truth. I do consider him mostly healthy, but he certainly has his moments, like most people do, where he dips into low-average to unhealthy. I think he does well at work, but that he sucks it up sometimes, and that can be trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    To me, super unhealthy 8s are those that THINK they're in the healthy parameters. I think any 8 that feels they're in that top-number-1 healthy factor need to re-evaluate themselves. The ones that think they're knights in shining armor, and have delusions of saving everyone, but the reality is they have such little control over reality that they lie to themselves to feign control. Reality is too harsh for them, a lack of control over themselves and others has spiraled outside of comfortable measures, and this manifests in many ways. Communication might as well be filed under mission impossible, and they won't listen to anyone. Anything can be preceived as weakness and attempting to control them.. so they push away everyone, and make enemies out of friends.
    My 8 certainly has the knight in shining armor thing going on, but I think it is adorable. I don't consider it unhealthy that he wants to play the role of protector of his people.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I argue. Usually, if I am arguing with someone.. it is because I trust them enough that I can show emotions like that, or I don't know them at all and will probably never encounter them again in my life. To me, anger is the easiest thing for people to control, and I do my best to calm my rage and my temper (which is quite short) and I have several coping mechanisms for ensuring I don't get upset. But I like to argue.. I think the right kind of argument helps sometimes.. but in fear of burning bridges for the sake of arguing, I leave these sort of things to people I trust the most.
    I wondered why my S.O. argued with me and not with others. LoL...... My S.O. loves to argue... but if you tell him he does, he will say he doesn't. I tell him his main issue is his inner-resistance. He is slowly coming around. Sometimes when I read excerpts about 8's that fit him, he will say that none of it fits him.:yim_rolling_on_the_ I told him I should write the authors to let them know that they were wrong about 8's, that they weren't human because they were too perfect to be so. LoL.....
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  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    I find most self-help books to be a mixture of pop-psych and no-brainers. They're not threatening at all. Just kind of dumb.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I find most self-help books to be a mixture of pop-psych and no-brainers. They're not threatening at all. Just kind of dumb.
    I'm actually referring to enneagram books. They are found in the self-help section of the bookstore, and enneagram theory is not considered psychology at this point, but self-help.
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  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I'm actually referring to enneagram books. They are found in the self-help section of the bookstore, and enneagram theory is not considered psychology at this point, but self-help.
    True, didn't think of enneagram and yet, thinking about it, it definitely belongs in self-help. But then, I don't embrace enneagram in its totality.

    My point was that feeling threatened is less likely his problem with self-help books.

  7. #27
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    True, didn't think of enneagram and yet, thinking about it, it definitely belongs in self-help. But then, I don't embrace enneagram in its totality.

    My point was that feeling threatened is less likely his problem with self-help books.
    No, I don't think it is either. I think he fears betrayal, and that he is losing control of his situation. It's not necessarily the books, but the fact that I am looking to new resources for answers, and that sets off his radar.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    My 8 would use self-help books as toillet paper so its better to keep em away from him !

  9. #29
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    My 8 would use self-help book as toilet paper so its better to keep em away from him !
    I can believe that! My S.O. was that way too until I got into enneagrams, and now when I read it, he sees that some of it is true. He's opened his mind a bit.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    actually thats good example to show what i dont understand abou him ; its that i can give him book and say "this book solved all my problems. blah blah" and NO MATTER what is written in the book, even if it really is "answer to all problems" in it, he will refuse it and say its crap! So he doesnt need to open it chances are 0,1% he will agree with anything from it.

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