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  1. #81
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    haha yea Jesus is a historical figure. And so are Zeus, Apollo, Heracles, Krishna, Quetzacoatl, Odin, and Loki.

    (winged serpents can be historical figures too right?)
    there is hard evidence that jesus existed. you can tour famous sites that he went to, you can buy a piece of the actual cross he was hung on and several of the actual scrolls upon which bible verses were originally written have been found. I'm not here to rapture you, but to say that Jesus didn't exist is just foolish and unfounded
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  2. #82
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    Yeah Jesus was a real person.

    However the eternal debate is if he was just a nice guy or Our Lord and Savior.

  3. #83
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Source: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...y_nojesus.html
    1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist
    No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!
    Of course, many will question the credibility of the site instead of questioning their ''holy bible'' and it is fine. I'm just providing a diferent view.
    Edit: I've just made a thread on the Philosophy section to discuss that. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...sus-exist.html
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  4. #84
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    there is hard evidence that jesus existed. you can tour famous sites that he went to, you can buy a piece of the actual cross he was hung on and several of the actual scrolls upon which bible verses were originally written have been found. I'm not here to rapture you, but to say that Jesus didn't exist is just foolish and unfounded
    The people selling those are descendants of the ones that were selling a spot in heaven some centuries ago! Seriously, it is hard to assume it's true.
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  5. #85
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Wow...this thread has really jumped the shark..

    *ahem*

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I hope I didn't come across as condescending, Tinker... I was just providing a counterpoint to Elfboy's claim.

    Healthy Twos FTW!
    You didn't come off as condescending at all, you made very valid points. Thank you though for your consideration, its' appreciated

    While he may or may not have said so in a way that other people would have agreed with, I actually think Elfboy did bring up some valid criticisms of Twos.

    I don't know about other two's, but I know that I am my own worst enemy. I have a very *very* strong need to feel loved and wanted and often times this mines that I'll put myself in positions that will allow me to get overworked and/or taken advantage of. It's usually then I'll start to get resentful, stressed, and/or really angry with the person or the situation. I mentioned pride in my earlier post and this is where it usually comes into play: I'll start to become controlling and think to myself, "You know, I do SO much for this person, don't I deserve something in return???"

    It's that thought that is usually my cognitive red-flag to me that I need to stop whatever I'm doing and step back and take-five.

    The thing of it is though, people are generally selfish. Mind you, when I say that I don't mean that with any sort of negative connotation, I simply mean that if you tell a person that you're going to do something with no strings attached, and even that you enjoy performing this act of service for someone, then they'll (surprise!) let you do it over and over again. When these same people suddenly get a request for some sort of gratitude or appreciation, they'll suddenly feel like that've been had or manipulated. This I think is what turns a lot of people off to Twos.

    As a Two, I've had to learn that I have to be a little selfish and that I need to care for my own needs just as much as I want to care for others. I have a great deal of pride in myself (as do many twos from what I understand) and when I do something really nice for someone that I know could put me in a compromising position, I have to make my intentions and my reasons for doing so clear as to avoid any misunderstandings further up the road.

    Otherwise I run the risk of being walked all over and then (rather stupidly) getting angry at people for doing exactly what I allowed them to do (and in some cases, even encouraged them to do) and getting all pissy and passive aggressive with them as a result.

    At least, that's what I think I'm supposed to do in theory. How often I actually do that though....well, not as much as I probably should. I hate conflict, particularly with people I really like and I've found that asserting my own needs is a delicate balancing act...one of which I'd rather just avoid sometimes.

    It's horribly stupid and irrational and I don't blame people for bashing unhealthy or unbalanced Twos...I know I'm thoroughly unpleasant to be around in that state.
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  6. #86
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I'm nice but I don't have much of problem setting boundaries or conveying my needs. This is something I had to learn though.

  7. #87
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Otherwise I run the risk of being walked all over and then (rather stupidly) getting angry at people for doing exactly what I allowed them to do (and in some cases, even encouraged them to do) and getting all pissy and passive aggressive with them as a result.
    But isn't this selfish, which is exactly what two's are guilty of believing about everyone else? It seems that some two's actually seek out these scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post

    I don't know about other two's, but I know that I am my own worst enemy. I have a very *very* strong need to feel loved and wanted and often times this mines that I'll put myself in positions that will allow me to get overworked and/or taken advantage of. It's usually then I'll start to get resentful, stressed, and/or really angry with the person or the situation. I mentioned pride in my earlier post and this is where it usually comes into play: I'll start to become controlling and think to myself, "You know, I do SO much for this person, don't I deserve something in return???"

    It's that thought that is usually my cognitive red-flag to me that I need to stop whatever I'm doing and step back and take-five.

    The thing of it is though, people are generally selfish. Mind you, when I say that I don't mean that with any sort of negative connotation, I simply mean that if you tell a person that you're going to do something with no strings attached, and even that you enjoy performing this act of service for someone, then they'll (surprise!) let you do it over and over again. When these same people suddenly get a request for some sort of gratitude or appreciation, they'll suddenly feel like that've been had or manipulated. This I think is what turns a lot of people off to Twos.
    It is definitely what turned me off. I have been aware of my mil's way since I first met her. I sensed it. But I also think it is the fault of the person on the receiving end as well, since they apparently don't understand that NOTHING in life is free. If a two offers me something, I politely decline, because I know what they are up to. This is why I don't consider them altruistic. I think two's perform altruistic acts on occasion, but overall, I don't consider them altruistic. If I accepted any sort of service from a two, I would feel overly-committed and indebted to them, which is a scenario I generally avoid in life. So no, I don't think you could put me in that "selfish" pot with everyone else, of receiving with no feelings of being indebted to that person in some way, or believing that I didn't owe them something. I think two's CAN be taken advantage of, but generally it's those people who are willing to take advantage of someone that are on the receiving end. So that leaves you with an unrealistic perspective of people in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    As a Two, I've had to learn that I have to be a little selfish and that I need to care for my own needs just as much as I want to care for others. I have a great deal of pride in myself (as do many twos from what I understand) and when I do something really nice for someone that I know could put me in a compromising position, I have to make my intentions and my reasons for doing so clear as to avoid any misunderstandings further up the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I'm nice but I don't have much of problem setting boundaries or conveying my needs. This is something I had to learn though.
    Good for you. You are both smarter than my mil. LoL....

    The one thing I have noticed about two's, is that some seem to believe from their standpoint that they have been taken advantage of, when nothing beyond the ordinary has happened. For example, my mil likes feeding cats in feral cat colonies. Her daughter was going there to feed cats in a feral cat colony, but she moved, so she had to quit feeding them. So my mil (the two), stepped in and started feeding them. She then calls the daughter "selfish" and claims she is "taking advantage of her". The daughter just assumed that the cats would go find another food source, yet, the mother insists that the daughter stuck her with the task of taking over the feeding of the cat colony.

    If the same thing happened to me, I would just assume that the daughter moved, that she couldn't drive that far to feed the cats anymore, and that they would find another source of food. I would not feel taken advantage of, or that the person was selfish for choosing not to feed the cats anymore. My mil (the two) simply doesn't view the situation the same way I do. And that's what I initially meant by someone selling a scenario differently than it is, to me. In reality, imo, the two was not taken advantage of or overworked, unless she chose to be overworked by taking over the feeding of the cats. She actually seeked out this scenario.

    So my mil is so retarded that she is saying the daughter is "selfish" right in my presence. So I was like, well, you must think I am selfish too lol......
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  8. #88
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Tinker's post seems spot on - my ESFJ 2(w3?) dad has that problem: he gives and gives, even when you insist ("No, thanks, I'll do it on my own" "But it's easier if I help!") and then goes all, "I do so much for you, and you dare criticize me? ". I generally try to minimize my needs, which prompts him to "create" new ones ("It's obvious Viridian wants help with his project!" "Er, dad..." "Don't you? Of course you do!"). You can see how that might be a problem... XD

  9. #89
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    ICUP, re your mil... just ignore her/that. She is not saying that you are by extension selfish, and she probably doesn't even believe that her daughter is selfish. That's just her way of expressing her frustration about not having help because the cats are too much of a burden to handle by herself but at the same time she feels like she can't leave them (the cats). What did she say to the idea that the cats will find somewhere else to go for food? (I have no experience with feral cats so I don't know)

  10. #90
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    ICUP, re your mil... just ignore her/that. She is not saying that you are by extension selfish, and she probably doesn't even believe that her daughter is selfish. That's just her way of expressing her frustration about not having help because the cats are too much of a burden to handle by herself but at the same time she feels like she can't leave them (the cats). What did she say to the idea that the cats will find somewhere else to go for food? (I have no experience with feral cats so I don't know)
    They set up the colony there because there are nearby sources of food....
    I don't believe in feeding self-sustaining ferals at all. But, generally, they will find other sources of food around (hunting, dumpsters, at the worst), if no one is around to feed them, much like any cat that lives outside.
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