[Type 5] e5 and Emotions

[Z Buck McFate]

Well, I'm only speaking from experience. Don't think of being vulnerable as being naive - they aren't the same thing. Similarly, detachment and mistrust don't make you smart or strong.

Think of it this way - the more vulnerable you make yourself, the stronger you'll become. The less vulnerable you become, the more removed from life you are. And life is what it's all about.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting more detachment and mistrust- and I absolutely agree that the more vulnerable you make yourself, the stronger you'll become. My point was to add the caveat that it's important to pay attention to automatic thoughts while doing so, and in so doing- learn to assert one's will a bit more (which moves e5'ers closer to their e8 integration point). Without simultaneously working on the reason detachment is an issue in the first place- deciding to simply 'trust' is almost like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. [edit:] That last statement is based on my own experience. I'm no Spring Chicken, and self-fulfilling prophecies are a bitch.

 

[Totenkindly]

Fives like being in control, because they don't feel like they're in control - life is too overwhelming to risk affection. What's you're proposing doesn't solve this compulsion, all it does is augment it - like a cornered fox snarling at it's own shadow. The only real cure is to concede detachment, place your stakes emotionally and let life affect you. Whatever strength you feel you're missing will come to you very naturally, only this time it will be augmented by emotion and participation rather than needing to defend your detached relation to the world.

Agreed. Five's remain in control (and maintain their feelings of security/safety and balance) by detachment. Detach, examine, figure out, then engage is the natural pattern -- risk-management, in a sense -- since engaging emotionally is a fearful, unpredictable, real-time experience with no time to study or think. And being dragged into external emo-drama? Or relational chaos? No, the avoidance/withdrawal method is originally preferred.

Typically what needs to happen is that Five has to garner experience (typically slowly, but steadily) in these unsettling interactions and/or acquire enough life wisdom to develop patterns to deal with emotional turbulence and the ambiguity of engagement in real-time. Fives also learns a realistic sense of themselves and their capabilities over time, and realize that they are capable of entering these ambiguous situations without having everything all thought out and still not just surviving but succeeding. This is why typical Direction of Integration in Five moves to Eight -- Fives can become more decisive, empowered, and use their insights to lead rather than withdrawing.

This is why most INTPs seem to type as e5's -- the patterns are essentially the same in both personality types. I'm not sure about other typings for Fives that involve MBTI EF types, as I'm seeing here... the patterns are about as opposite as you can get. (EF's natural instincts are much more 2 or 8, and especially ESFs instinctively engage the environment when they feel unsure or don't know something, as their starting point. Meanwhile, Fives automatically withdraw when they don't know something; its counter-intuitive to engage first.)

Well, I'm only speaking from experience. Don't think of being vulnerable as being naive - they aren't the same thing. Similarly, detachment and mistrust don't make you smart or strong.

Think of it this way - the more vulnerable you make yourself, the stronger you'll become. The less vulnerable you become, the more removed from life you are. And life is what it's all about.

Yes, very insightful.

I grew up around a lot of 1, 2, and 6 types. Some of those types are very risk-avoidant and/or fearful types. I absorbed a lot of that mentality because it accentuated the easy but negative pathway of the Five to avoid interactions in order to protect oneself.

When I got older, I felt more and more detached from the world (increasing my loneliness), and I realized more and more than I had a kind of resilience that I had not been taught by my culture or family -- and that a lot of this stuff I was afraid of might scare and hurt me, but it could never kill me. I was smart, and wise, and had a lot of insight, and even when I didn't know the answers, I could figure them out if I engaged. My world wanted to keep me scared and in the dark, "hunkered down in the bunker" to keep out the rest of the world... but that was a choice becoming less and less palatable to me as time passed.

So reacting out of fear would just put me in a cage of my own making, but if I leaped off the cliff into open air, chances are that after fumbling around, I would find my wings and soon fly with the best of them.

Five underestimates its own power and overestimates the danger and aggression of the world. The world is actually a warmer, more inviting place than the original fear makes it out to be, and Five is far stronger than it realizes. There's a natural reticence for Five to impose its power on others, but it can learn to apply its power/insight in useful ways to benefit itself and others.

 

[Glycerine]

The vulnerability thing is a tough one. It sounds like some control freak behavior. lol

 

[Glycerine]

Agreed. Five's remain in control (and maintain their feelings of security/safety and balance) by detachment. Detach, examine, figure out, then engage is the natural pattern -- risk-management, in a sense -- since engaging emotionally is a fearful, unpredictable, real-time experience with no time to study or think. And being dragged into external emo-drama? Or relational chaos? No, the avoidance/withdrawal method is originally preferred.

Typically what needs to happen is that Five has to garner experience (typically slowly, but steadily) in these unsettling interactions and/or acquire enough life wisdom to develop patterns to deal with emotional turbulence and the ambiguity of engagement in real-time. Fives also learns a realistic sense of themselves and their capabilities over time, and realize that they are capable of entering these ambiguous situations without having everything all thought out and still not just surviving but succeeding. This is why typical Direction of Integration in Five moves to Eight -- Fives can become more decisive, empowered, and use their insights to lead rather than withdrawing.

This is why most INTPs seem to type as e5's -- the patterns are essentially the same in both personality types. I'm not sure about other typings for Fives that involve MBTI EF types, as I'm seeing here... the patterns are about as opposite as you can get (EF's natural instincts are much more 2 or 8, they instinctively engage the environment when they feel unsure, as their starting point).

I have a screwed up relationship with emotions..... always have. I didn't learn to fully trust people until age 8-10 so I am a bit emotionally atypical.

 

[Totenkindly]

I have a screwed up relationship with emotions..... always have. I didn't learn to fully trust people until age 8-10 so I am a bit emotionally atypical.

You learned to trust them that soon?

I figured out pretty early that most people weren't evil and did mean well... but I couldn't say I trusted them. They typically always let me down, or at least weren't stable enough for me to feel safe not being stable.

I'm going to guess that I still don't really "trust" people even now (or is it just because I don't want to unnecessarily burden them with my mess? Not sure) because I usually end up being very stable and keeping myself under wraps. I think I have only ever had 2-3 relationships in my life where I could completely let myself be momentarily unstable, emotional, unbalanced, and even unfair while still trusting the other person knew what was up and wasn't judging me for it and could deal with my mess. And the one relationship where I really let myself hang out... well, it no longer exists, for other reasons though... kinda sad.

Anyway, there's the "self-control" thing. Fives have to be stable in an unstable world, as a form of protection. That's part of the reason for the desire for balance/equanimity.

I know not to take this stuff too seriously but fellow e5, how do you deal with emotions? The main way I deal with mine is by venting on this forum or listen to "emo" music. In general, I struggle with getting in touch with my emotions.

Sorry, I never answered the OP.

It depends on the type of emotion, I think. One thing about me though (which seems to be consistent with INTPs) is that I don't want to change my emotion. If I feel angry, or if I feel sad, I don't want to try to lie and say I'm not. My emotion is my emotion and it has to be examined and dealt with... and I typically deal with it by diving into it inside and exploring it and merging with it.

So it can be a very introspective process.

Similarly, when I'm sad inside, I like to resonate with it. So I'll listen to music that reinforces it rather than trying to change it. I get in tune with feelings by surrounding myself in similar ambiance -- music, surroundings, movies, books, particular settings. I love dark, bittersweet movies too.... Dark City, Pan's Labyrinth, Sunshine, even Silence of the Lambs ends with this weird hauntedness... I soak myself in internal emotion and let myself go.

External emotions are a bit different. The earlier process I described is how I deal with internal emotions, not external emotions (which are emotions that are being directed at me in my environment, or emotions I am afraid I am going to release uncontrollably into the environment). If I'm being hit by too much drama or external emotion from others, I need to typically get out... or engage in a way that diffuses that emo-drama. If I'm afraid I'm going to blast, I typically like to get alone somewhere, and if I can, I try to calm myself with a distraction, or I find a safe place to release that anger.

(I remember times when I would get into a battle with spouse for a few hours at a time -- this is years ago, and we were both very stubborn sometimes -- and after all that fighting, even while we were still arguing, I'd be stomping around the house, cleaning up wildly, doing dishes intensely, I was like a madhouse of cleaning energy.... and part of me was laughing insanely at myself because it was so hilarious, since I'm usually more lethargic when it comes to cleaning... but man, piss me off with nowhere for that energy to go, and the house would be spotless by the end of the fight! I had to get rid of it all somehow before I blew. Another pastime I would use to diffuse anger would be jogging. I would just throw on my shoes, go outside, and run run run until I couldn't run anymore and was exhausted. AT that point, I liked to go out in nature, and lose myself.)

I guess I am exploring this thought as I go, so if I were to say something based on what I just wrote, I would say that safe emotions -- ones that were all internal and resonating with me -- are emotions I want to explore and merge with; dangerous emotions that could quickly create an unsafe environment for me externally, all those emotions would need to be diffused somehow so I could feel stable and in control. Inside, I could feel unstable because I knew I had the space I needed to figure it out and no one else even had to know; externally, I had to keep everything stable.

 

[Arclight]

Fives automatically withdraw when they don't know something; its counter-intuitive to engage first.)

But like The Universe was clever enough to sandwich Fe between Ni and Ti, so is the universe clever enough to give the e5 very human wing points.
The problem with withdraw is a potential for lack of information and perspective. Take it from someone who knows how to warp reality to fit my own twisted slants on things. The more you think you can figure it all out alone, the more farther away you get from the truth.
Whether I am 5w6 or 6w5 the problem remains the same. Countering the duality and finding balance.
There is strength in numbers.

 

[Totenkindly]

But like The Universe was clever enough to sandwich Fe between Ni and Ti, so is the universe clever enough to give the e5 very human wing points.
The problem with withdraw is a potential for lack of information and perspective. Take it from someone who know how to warp reality to fit my own twisted slants on things. The more you think you can figure it all out alone, the more farther away you get from the truth.
Whether I am 5w6 or 6w5 the problem remains the same. Countering the duality and finding balance.
There is strength in numbers.

I think what I was saying is that naturally Fives FIND balance and cling to it, to the exclusion of allowing variability to intrude. It doesn't even have to be thought about, it's the natural response. That's how I understand Five. The balance is instinctual, not learned. If someone has to work really hard to find balance and is never balanced, and typically engages with a lot of up and down variability/emotion by nature, then they're probably not natural Fives. There's a natural stability created by keeping things at arm's length.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about Fives in this thread, or what you even mean about "Fe being sandwiched between Ni and Ti."

 

[Arclight]

With me, it's always about countering something or someone who manages to paint such a narrow stroke with such a broad brush.
We are human beings. What I mean is even INFJs and e5 and others who need to withdraw have a counter instinct to connect. What else are we doing here talking then?
I don't believe we are static or stuck in the descriptions of these personality types, not entirely.
They should point us to our weakness and show us a way to grow, not to stagnate because we relate, or don't relate, to some point that has been made by someone else. How Extroverted ,lol

 

[Glycerine]

You learned to trust them that soon?

I figured out pretty early that most people weren't evil and did mean well... but I couldn't say I trusted them. They typically always let me down, or at least weren't stable enough for me to feel safe not being stable.

I'm going to guess that I still don't really "trust" people even now (or is it just because I don't want to unnecessarily burden them with my mess? Not sure) because I usually end up being very stable and keeping myself under wraps. I think I have only ever had 2-3 relationships in my life where I could completely let myself be momentarily unstable, emotional, unbalanced, and even unfair while still trusting the other person knew what was up and wasn't judging me for it and could deal with my mess. And the one relationship where I really let myself hang out... well, it no longer exists, for other reasons though... kinda sad.

Anyway, there's the "self-control" thing. Fives have to be stable in an unstable world, as a form of protection. That's part of the reason for the desire for balance/equanimity.

People consistently gave me a reason not to trust them. I either semi hated or hated the people taking care of me so I coped by engaging my mind for hours on end.
I can totally relate with the relationships, I start opening up to people and then as soon, I get uncomfortable, I pull back and don't talk to them for months or let it dissolve. On some occasions, I have noticed that I try to sabotage relationships to test the person or to passive aggressively get the person out of my life. Overall, I do "trust" that my closest people would not intentionally try to harm me but not really with my vulnerabilities.... I end up being the one listening to other people's drama and struggles. It's not very fun. Let's drink to e5 loneliness.

Sorry, I never answered the OP.

It depends on the type of emotion, I think. One thing about me though (which seems to be consistent with INTPs) is that I don't want to change my emotion. If I feel angry, or if I feel sad, I don't want to try to lie and say I'm not. My emotion is my emotion and it has to be examined and dealt with... and I typically deal with it by diving into it inside and exploring it and merging with it.

So it can be a very introspective process.

Similarly, when I'm sad inside, I like to resonate with it. So I'll listen to music that reinforces it rather than trying to change it. I get in tune with feelings by surrounding myself in similar ambiance -- music, surroundings, movies, books, particular settings. I love dark, bittersweet movies too.... Dark City, Pan's Labyrinth, Sunshine, even Silence of the Lambs ends with this weird hauntedness... I soak myself in internal emotion and let myself go.

External emotions are a bit different. The earlier process I described is how I deal with internal emotions, not external emotions (which are emotions that are being directed at me in my environment, or emotions I am afraid I am going to release uncontrollably into the environment). If I'm being hit by too much drama or external emotion from others, I need to typically get out... or engage in a way that diffuses that emo-drama. If I'm afraid I'm going to blast, I typically like to get alone somewhere, and if I can, I try to calm myself with a distraction, or I find a safe place to release that anger.

(I remember times when I would get into a battle with spouse for a few hours at a time -- this is years ago, and we were both very stubborn sometimes -- and after all that fighting, even while we were still arguing, I'd be stomping around the house, cleaning up wildly, doing dishes intensely, I was like a madhouse of cleaning energy.... and part of me was laughing insanely at myself because it was so hilarious, since I'm usually more lethargic when it comes to cleaning... but man, piss me off with nowhere for that energy to go, and the house would be spotless by the end of the fight! I had to get rid of it all somehow before I blew. Another pastime I would use to diffuse anger would be jogging. I would just throw on my shoes, go outside, and run run run until I couldn't run anymore and was exhausted. AT that point, I liked to go out in nature, and lose myself.)

I guess I am exploring this thought as I go, so if I were to say something based on what I just wrote, I would say that safe emotions -- ones that were all internal and resonating with me -- are emotions I want to explore and merge with; dangerous emotions that could quickly create an unsafe environment for me externally, all those emotions would need to be diffused somehow so I could feel stable and in control. Inside, I could feel unstable because I knew I had the space I needed to figure it out and no one else even had to know; externally, I had to keep everything stable.

I have nothing else to really add but that you always have excellent insight into things. I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[rav3n]

E5's my head tritype. It's helpful from the perspective of being an instinctual 8w7 sx/sp as gut type, since detachment preserves the needed control and modifies the reactionary "all in" factor.

Consider this Pitseleh. The more "in" you are at the onset reliant on your initial assessment of red flaggage, the sooner you find out someone else is a schmuck. The minute they start to push your vulnerability triggers, is the minute you can detach and shut down softer emotions.

 

[Glycerine]

E5's my head tritype. It's helpful from the perspective of being an instinctual 8w7 sx/sp as gut type, since detachment preserves the needed control and modifies the reactionary "all in" factor.

Consider this Pitseleh. The more "in" you are at the onset reliant on your initial assessment of red flaggage, the sooner you find out someone else is a schmuck. The minute they start to push your vulnerability triggers, is the minute you can detach and shut down softer emotions.

hahahahaha I like the positive spin on things. This is the reason why I love ENTJs.

 

[Totenkindly]

People consistently gave me a reason not to trust them. I either semi hated or hated the people taking care of me so I coped by engaging my mind for hours on end. I can totally relate with the relationships, I start opening up to people and then as soon, I get uncomfortable, I pull back and don't talk to them for months or let it dissolve. On some occasions, I have noticed that I try to sabotage relationships to test the person or to passive aggressively get the person out of my life.

I try not to do that, but sometimes I do want to know where someone stands with me, so I'll "ease up on the self control" and put something out there, to see what they do with it... something not too big, in case they let me down. Then, if they pass, I'll give them a little more to see, and watch their response.

I do have that weird "push/pull" thing where I can put a lot of myself out there, then feel like I said too much and want to take it back... because it's no longer under my control. I tended to chalk it up as the sx/sp conflict, though. Do you think it could be?

Overall, I do "trust" that my closest people would not intentionally try to harm me but not really with my vulnerabilities.... I end up being the one listening to other people's drama and struggles. It's not very fun.

Same here. I do actually find it fun and affirming to be able to listen to others and help affirm them and give them a new way to look at things / see their situation differently. But sometimes it gets very lonely, and sometimes I just get people who want to latch on and not give anything back. How would you deal with that?

Let's drink to e5 loneliness.

Bottoms up! Yeah, let me know when and where, and it's martinis by the round.

With me, it's always about countering something or someone who manages to paint such a narrow stroke with such a broad brush.
We are human beings. What I mean is even INFJs and e5 and others who need to withdraw have a counter instinct to connect. What else are we doing here talking then?
I don't believe we are static or stuck in the descriptions of these personality types, not entirely.
They should point us to our weakness and show us a way to grow, not to stagnate because we relate, or don't relate, to some point that has been made by someone else. How Extroverted ,lol

I think you're gonna have to expect an INTP to challenge ideas that seem inconsistent, if they bother to engage at all -- in this case, any comments made about Fives that don't seem to make sense or seem inconsistent with the known theory. It's not hard to fix; all you have to do is explain the logic, so it can either be shown to be coherent or else further expose itself as not.

To me, that's a side issue from how such a theory should be used, which is more of a value statement and not a fact statement.

I do think, though, that if a theory is incoherent, trying to use it to help people can easily lead them astray rather than actually being helpful in the long term.

(Other than that, I happen to appreciate personality theories because they can be applied toward personal growth.)

 

[A window to the soul]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about Fives in this thread, or what you even mean about "Fe being sandwiched between Ni and Ti."

Well, I think it was simply a less technical way of saying that behavior is not a constant and some type 5's may deviate from the 'average' type 5 description (represented in this thread) when you take all variations into consideration; such as a 4 or a 6 wing; sx, sp, so. You've also got to look at what level of development (health) a person is at. I'll throw in that a healthy 5 is going to look significantly different from an unhealthy 5.

 

[rav3n]

hahahahaha I like the positive spin on things. This is the reason why I love ENTJs.

There are three types of people in the world:

1. Wow, you're amazing!
2. You're okay.
3. Fuck you and all your crappy ancestors who bred in a barn, to create such a miserable example of purported humanity.

So, the sooner you find out it's a barn breeder, the sooner you detach.

 

[Arclight]

Well, I think it was simply a less technical way of saying that behavior is not a constant and some type 5's may deviate from the 'average' type 5 description (represented in this thread) when you take all variations of type 5's into consideration; such as a 4 or a 6 wing; sx, sp, so. You've also got to look at what level of development (health) a person is at.

Thank You NG...
You say it better than I do.
"Narrow strokes with broad brushes" seemed pretty "technical" to me.
I speak with imagery and some people can't decode it maybe?

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I think it was simply a less technical way of saying that behavior is not a constant and some type 5's may deviate from the 'average' type 5 description (represented in this thread) when you take all variations into consideration; such as a 4 or a 6 wing; sx, sp, so. You've also got to look at what level of development (health) a person is at.

IOW, he was trying to say that Fe in relationship to Ni or Ti looks different than Fe by itself?

I do agree that functions look different based on what company they are keeping; however, that still has little to do with Fe-primaries (Primaries, mind you) whose natural instinct is to engage when unsure, to claim to be Fives... a type that very heavily correlates to Ti, whose natural instinct is to withdraw when unsure. That's just basic Enneagram theory. Fives withdraw. Fe tends to show up as Two or Eight, and Two's accommodate, and Eight's assert.

I mean, that's not my "personal pet peeve" here... that is actual statistics of type. Out of all the Enneagram types, statistically, Fives seem to be MOST correlated to a particular MBTI type -- and that type is INTP. That reality still has to be explained somehow, if one is going to make such a huge exception.

I speak with imagery and some people can't decode it maybe?

No, I honestly can't decode it. I do speak in imagery too and love metaphor and roundabout ways of saying things, but your comments/patterns of speaking are difficult for me to unravel sometimes.

I think I followed NG's comments, though.

 

[Glycerine]

I do have that weird "push/pull" thing where I can put a lot of myself out there, then feel like I said too much and want to take it back... because it's no longer under my control. I tended to chalk it up as the sx/sp conflict, though. Do you think it could be?

I am not sure because I am SP/SO. Maybe it's the need for self-preservation with the desire to reach out (socially or sexually). Aren't 5's usually about self-preservation with all the self-control, trust issues (speaking generally, not enneagram definitions)? At the same time humans generally want to reach out and bond with others. It might be a conflict of interest.

Same here. I do actually find it fun and affirming to be able to listen to others and help affirm them and give them a new way to look at things / see their situation differently. But sometimes it gets very lonely, and sometimes I just get people who want to latch on and not give anything back. How would you deal with that?

I just go have some alone time and then rise back up out of my hermit cave when I am ready to face them again. If it's bad, I lessen my contact with them but it is a balance cutting it off and not being being dismissive.

 

[Ginkgo]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about Fives in this thread, or what you even mean about "Fe being sandwiched between Ni and Ti."

Lol same.

I'm a 4w5 but I most often score as a 5 on tests. 4 holds more weight for my personality because it's heart (image) focused, along with 3 and 2. On the other hand, 5 is more centered around problem solving, following suite with 6 and 7. For me, my "fiviness" proceeds from my "fouriness" because being a problem solver is the image I most create for myself. In fact, it's not uncommon for me to overturn concepts the way the "iconoclast" does just because I can.

I think that on occasion, 5s become attached to the idea of being detached, and in the process start fizzling out like a malfunctioning robot. I've known a few that just internally combust and skitter off like a flaming UFO because I didn't subscribe to their little "mental map" of reality. I guess when you throw chewed gum in their cartography, they start to get attached to in on all fronts. Lol.

 

[Ginkgo]

I just go have some alone time and then rise back up out of my hermit cave when I am ready to face them again. If it's bad, I lessen my contact with them but it is a balance cutting it off and not being being dismissive.

How does your extraversion play a part in that?

 

[Arclight]

IOW, he was trying to say that Fe in relationship to Ni or Ti looks different than Fe by itself?

I do agree that functions look different based on what company they are keeping; however, that still has little to do with Fe-primaries (Primaries, mind you) whose natural instinct is to engage when unsure, to claim to be Fives... a type that very heavily correlates to Ti, whose natural instinct is to withdraw when unsure. That's just basic Enneagram theory. Fives withdraw. Fe tends to show up as Two or Eight, and Two's accommodate, and Eight's assert.

I mean, that's not my "personal pet peeve" here... that is actual statistics of type. Out of all the Enneagram types, statistically, Fives seem to be MOST correlated to a particular MBTI type -- and that type is INTP. That reality still has to be explained somehow, if one is going to make such a huge exception.



No, I honestly can't decode it. I do speak in imagery too and love metaphor and roundabout ways of saying things, but your comments/patterns of speaking are difficult for me to unravel sometimes.

I think I followed NG's comments, though.

OK so I will try to explain.

I was trying to say that Both Ni and TI are naturally introverted and anti social.
Thus the Fe is the counter to completely closing off and also the vessel for communicating what Ni and Ti ascertain.
As with 5 being analytical and withdrawing in nature.
Both e5 and Ni/Ti are anti social by nature.
However human beings are not anti social by nature.
So even the most extreme and rare types such as INFJs and e5s still have a social drive built in.
I am describing this social drive as Fe or w4 w6.
Ignoring them is perilous and unhealthy.

So when someone starts speaking about things from a very unhealthy perspective, but is someone who is extremely graceful in their explanation,
and I am not sure If I can speak to this person directly. Then I speak in metaphor and hope this person hears my words and remembers they are an extreme case and thus, that a more balanced perspective needs to be presented, even if I am an extreme case myself.

I will add.. If you like metaphor , what about the horse/emotion comments.?
One person said it was "powerful".