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Thread: e5 and Emotions

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I am not sure because I am SP/SO. Maybe it's the need for self-preservation with the desire to reach out (socially or sexually). Aren't 5's usually about self-preservation with all the self-control, trust issues (speaking generally, not enneagram definitions)? At the same time humans generally want to reach out and bond with others. It might be a conflict of interest.
    Yes, that seems to catch the gist of it. With the SX thing, I'm looking more for intimate connection rather than social connection, but the SP thing seems to saying, "Oh, you really don't want to go out there and get enmeshed by someone you can't trust." They typically seem at odds. And the detachment strategy is the easiest, but human beings are human beings and typically need SOME sort of contact with others... even if it's limited in some way, or even to give them an anchor in the quest for self.

    I just go have some alone time and then rise back up out of my hermit cave when I am ready to face them again. If it's bad, I lessen my contact with them but it is a balance cutting it off and not being being dismissive.
    Yes, that makes sense, although I think sometimes with clingier people it can be hard getting some sort of boundary up that is not rigid. And then having to remember all the different walls for different people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    I'll throw in that a healthy 5 is going to look significantly different from an unhealthy 5.
    Yes, the nine stages of unhealth to health for each type are pretty clearly delineated within Riso's enneagram materials.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight
    I was trying to say that Both Ni and TI are naturally introverted and anti social.
    Gotcha.

    Thus the Fe is the counter to completely closing off and also the vessel for communicating what Ni and Ti ascertain.
    Gotcha.

    As with 5 being analytical and withdrawing in nature.
    Both e5 and Ni/Ti are anti social by nature.
    However human beings are not anti social by nature.
    Note: You are using "anti-social" to mean two different things there.

    E5 and Ni/Ti, by your earlier definitions, ARE anti-social by nature.
    They withdraw.
    Giving the choice between engaging and not engaging, they detach, to get a better, safer perspective.

    Your definition of "anti-social" for the second half of your comment ("human beings are not anti-social by nature") refers to the general concept of "no man is an island" and that we all need some level of human contact.

    So even the most extreme and rare types such as INFJs and e5s still have a social drive built in.
    Yes. INFJs and E5s are DIFFERENT animals... but each is human, and thus each is not an island, and each needs some level of connection with other human beings in order to become fulfilled or at least reach their optimal stage of health, since we teach each other things we don't naturally know.

    But this is different from the "withdrawal" nature described in Enneagram theory.

    I am describing this social drive as Fe or w4 w6.
    You cannot define, logically, the need to connect with other humans to be "Fe" -- which is a very specific way to see/engage the world. Logically, you're comparing two things that might both look small, red, and round from a distance, but in reality one is an apple and the other is a small rubber ball... hence, not the same.

    You can't really define Fe to be whatever form of human connection you want it to be.

    To recap:
    • MBTI Fe = specific way to perceive/engage the world, prioritizing interpersonal values
    • social needs = the basic, generalized need for every human being regardless of MBTI type to engage and interact with others on SOME level


    Ignoring them is perilous and unhealthy.
    Well, I do agree with you there!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
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    @ MT: In general,it really plays out in my stressed mode, I am a chaotic ENFJ on steroids and seek people out a lot more when I am stressed. I am like the robot you just described. Also, I seek out a lot of social interaction but then if I don't know what's going on, I just do my own thing and zone out.

    To the actual question, I still seek people out but with a lower frequency. If I am desperate, I will go on Vent and check every once in awhile to see what people are discussing but then I get distracted by something else that attracts my attention.

  3. #43
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    I am using this definition of Fe.

    I will highlight the parts of Fe I regularly see in myself.


    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

    Sounds pretty "social" and very "other people" related to me.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I am using this definition of Fe.

    I will highlight the parts of Fe I regularly see in myself.


    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

    Sounds pretty "social" and very "other people" related to me.
    What we are discussing is the basic fundamentals of type theory, Arclight.

    "The need for human contact" is not "Fe."
    And people can interact with each / be sociable in ways that do not necessarily conform to Fe.
    (Ti people can discuss Ti ideas without doing any of the Fe stuff, and it can meet interaction needs, etc.)

    If you disagree on such a fundamental premise of type understanding, there's not much more to discuss, although I'm going to try to clarify for the benefit of others at least.

    I don't also want to make this a discussion of Arclight's use of Fe, which wasn't really the point ... unless you're gonna tie it to E5 in some way that makes sense.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
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    Just out of curiosity why do Ni and Ti have to be opposed to Fe (anti-social)? I think they can all work good together. My Fe gives an initial read on a situation and Ni and Ti gives me the the meaning and reasoning behind the situation. For example, is it important in the long run for me to correct that person's rude behavior or it is petty and I am imposing myself on the person?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Lol same.

    I'm a 4w5 but I most often score as a 5 on tests. 4 holds more weight for my personality because it's heart (image) focused, along with 3 and 2. On the other hand, 5 is more centered around problem solving, following suite with 6 and 7. For me, my "fiviness" proceeds from my "fouriness" because being a problem solver is the image I most create for myself. In fact, it's not uncommon for me to overturn concepts the way the "iconoclast" does just because I can.
    True, the head stuff does tend to be more "problem solving."

    You do sound like a mix / I perceive you that way ... in-between.

    I identify as a Five but one who has had to embrace passion and vision, so I can go into the murky areas of heart... and I also want to be known/connect. But I still ultimately have this detach, at the core of it, where I want to step back and figure things out.

    I think that on occasion, 5s become attached to the idea of being detached, and in the process start fizzling out like a malfunctioning robot. I've known a few that just internally combust and skitter off like a flaming UFO because I didn't subscribe to their little "mental map" of reality. I guess when you throw chewed gum in their cartography, they start to get attached to in on all fronts. Lol.
    I agree with that wholeheartedly.

    I've even actually thought about that a lot in the last week or two, personally, in that sometimes we get attached to viewing ourselves a certain way, and it becomes difficult to allow change to occur because we like this particular image we're projecting. And yet there is no possibility for growth without embracing reality and allowed a calcified self to shift.

    When I first ran into MBTI in my mid-20's, I actually really liked aspects of my type description. I also liked seeming very intellectual, smart, knowing everything, being enigmatic, being the advisor, being impenetrable, etc. But I found myself starting to change, based on life knowledge, and I think I actually fought it for awhile. I was scared to embrace a new understanding of myself. Emotional capacity might be a big one for solid 5's to embrace, feeling things strongly and allowing oneself to feel strongly -- it can be very threatening because it almost invalidates the image of the self as this stoic ivory tower of knowledge and wisdom that is always stable, always balanced, and that people have to approach to gain understanding.

    Letting go of that meant embracing someone who didn't have the answers, someone who was allowed to experience emotions and maybe not be stable all the time. Someone who could be in error, now, rather than "logically sound" at all costs. Someone who now might believe things that could not be proven, and other people might think she was a little batty. I was also scared of the responsibility of power: No longer could I sit back and just give answers and otherwise saying, "I don't know," I now had to actively engage and make decisions and admit that I had power to change things in the world. Power is kind of scary when you're someone who often sees life in shades of gray and doesn't want to screw up. It's easy to see oneself as detached from it all / apart from it all, and even victimized by it, because victims are innocent and have no responsibility.

    It was a very humbling experience to embrace that change in self-concept, in order to become accessible and more well-rounded. I don't regret it now, and even have some confidence now in who I am as this person, but back then... yes, it was really hard to let go of that very defined type of person I wanted to be.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47
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    Damn it. I thought I had an answer ready for this. Then I erased it, tried again, erased it, etc ... and noticed I might not be as good at emotional instrospection as I thought.

    Anyway, a lot depends on the kind of emotion we are talking about here and its intensity.

    Minor disgruntlement/tension,etc: If/when I notice it, I might try to distract myself by watching a movie I like or pamper myself with some good food (chances are I will - again!!!- have forgotten to eat anyway and on top of that an empty stomach turns me into a moody three year old). As soon as I manage to concentrate on something else (reading, watching videos, etc...) that's it. Case closed.

    Mid sized discomfort: This might be disappointment in a friend, a breakup from a short term fling or work related problems, etc or attacks of general angst (my life sucks, I'm a failure, I will end up poor and lonlely under a bridge,...). The first approach will be more of the same, i.e. distraction. One thing my mum taught me when I was little is how to manipulate your emotional state through music. So I'll put on extra happy dance music until the impulse to dance overrides the icey grasp of negative emotions - Alexis Zorbas style! That would be method a. Method b is grabbing the phone and calling one of the three people in this world I trust enough to bother them with emotional vomiting (well, let's say 90% of the time, depending on the case at hand). Method c is blowing the dust of the cover of my old diary and writing it all down (thus both expressing and analyzing it on the go). Method d is leaving the house for a walk and mulling things over (and either getting even more worked up in the process but at the same time getting a clearer picture or having calmed down by the end of the walk). If everything fails, I'll cuddle my cats, observe myself at it, judging the sight to be pathetic and burst in healthy tears that flush the stress hormones out of the system.

    Major drama: Of cause there has been heart break along the road, but there was only one person that ever got to me so thoroughly that it basically messed up two years of my life (almost a decade ago). During the worst moments I'd put on pathetically cheesy music that reminded me of that person, get hysterical and end up in crying in a fetal position on the kitchen floor...not a pretty sight and a period in my life I'd rather forget.

    There are moments when I feel the urge to talk and unburden myself. Sometimes a near stranger ends up being my victim in a situation like that. But normally even those closest to me won't know what's going on inside until something triggers an explosion. The reasons for that silence can be a) I don't want to bother them or think they won't understand or be able to help anyway or b) I didn't even know I had those feelings until I suddenly explode.

    I am capable of very intense feelings, but you never know when they will surface, it seems arbitrary even to me. When my first grandmother died, I had no reaction. A few years later I got a phone call that my other grandmother had died (the last one of my grandparents, thus making my parents the next in line, which is a scary thought)...again, no reaction. But only a few days later I got yet another phone call that our family dog had died after a long nasty illness I fortunately didn't have to witness because I live at the other end of the country and only come home once or twice a year.......and I burst out in tears. Not to mention the drama when my first cat disappeared who was basically my little baby (pathetic, I know).

    Another example. My ex has recently become serious with someone and since we are still close friends (that is, until a week ago or so) he told me all about his doubts and his heart break and all the complications between them...and I tried to listen and be there for him and judge the situation impartially and even give him advice, totally blinding out my own feelings on the issue. I had become a psychoalanysis/relationship advice robot. He repeatedly asked me if I was okay with him talking about these things. I said yeah, sure. He asked me how I felt about it. I said "don't know, I'll tell you when I find out". Well, it took me a few weeks (during which I felt absolutely nothing either way, total inner void) before I suddenly realized that I wanted to kick in his face with my high heels.

    Finding out how I really feel about something can be like going to the dentist sometimes. Distraction and over rationalization go a long way.
    But once those emotions surface, they can be very powerful and hard to control.

    Don't fear for the ex though, all I did was tell him that I needed some time out. So far no faces have been smashed.

    As for other people's emotions: I'm a passable amateur psychoanalyst with a patient and sympathetic ear. But tell me a friend of yours died and I'll start running. I never learned how to express my condolences. Especially when I don't feel anything about that person's death myself (yet?)
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #48
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    Death is really hard to cry about. I only really cried when I saw my flattened hamster and my other pet die in my hands.

    With random people dying, "I'm sorry to hear that" and letting the person vent works for me.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Death is really hard to cry about. I only really cried when I saw my flattened hamster and my other pet die in my hands.
    It is kind of funny how that works. When my grandfather died, I didn't cry at all. The same year, my dog died, and I wept. But the reality is that I knew my dog much better than I knew my grandfather.

    The same went for my cats, too; they were outdoor cats, but typically they would eventually get hit by people speeding on the country roads. I'd be sad (although I don't remember if I cried all the time), and I'd actually go out with a shovel and take them off the road and bury them somewhere in the yard. I remember at the time feeling that someone had to honor them, so that it was clear that they were loved; to leave something that was loved as trash alongside the road seemed horrible to me. It was funny because it sounds like a very SiFe thing, but none of the SiFe people in my life (including my mom) would have done that, and my grandmother (SiFe) would send me money because I was "so brave." I didn't really know what the money was for, it had nothing to do with what I was doing, but... people are strange.

    With random people dying, "I'm sorry to hear that" and letting the person vent works for me.
    Yeah, that is how I typically handle it too. I'm very careful about being too presumptuous about how they feel about it, and just instead try to give them space to talk... or not... while trying to emote sympathy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    True, the head stuff does tend to be more "problem solving."

    You do sound like a mix / I perceive you that way ... in-between.

    I identify as a Five but one who has had to embrace passion and vision, so I can go into the murky areas of heart... and I also want to be known/connect. But I still ultimately have this detach, at the core of it, where I want to step back and figure things out.



    I agree with that wholeheartedly.

    I've even actually thought about that a lot in the last week or two, personally, in that sometimes we get attached to viewing ourselves a certain way, and it becomes difficult to allow change to occur because we like this particular image we're projecting. And yet there is no possibility for growth without embracing reality and allowed a calcified self to shift.

    When I first ran into MBTI in my mid-20's, I actually really liked aspects of my type description. I also liked seeming very intellectual, smart, knowing everything, being enigmatic, being the advisor, being impenetrable, etc. But I found myself starting to change, based on life knowledge, and I think I actually fought it for awhile. I was scared to embrace a new understanding of myself. Emotional capacity might be a big one for solid 5's to embrace, feeling things strongly and allowing oneself to feel strongly -- it can be very threatening because it almost invalidates the image of the self as this stoic ivory tower of knowledge and wisdom that is always stable, always balanced, and that people have to approach to gain understanding.

    Letting go of that meant embracing someone who didn't have the answers, someone who was allowed to experience emotions and maybe not be stable all the time. Someone who could be in error, now, rather than "logically sound" at all costs. Someone who now might believe things that could not be proven, and other people might think she was a little batty. I was also scared of the responsibility of power: No longer could I sit back and just give answers and otherwise saying, "I don't know," I now had to actively engage and make decisions and admit that I had power to change things in the world. Power is kind of scary when you're someone who often sees life in shades of gray and doesn't want to screw up. It's easy to see oneself as detached from it all / apart from it all, and even victimized by it, because victims are innocent and have no responsibility.

    It was a very humbling experience to embrace that change in self-concept, in order to become accessible and more well-rounded. I don't regret it now, and even have some confidence now in who I am as this person, but back then... yes, it was really hard to let go of that very defined type of person I wanted to be.
    Thank you for sharing that.

    Yes I think that's part of the difficulty with self-knowledge - if you're tethered to a particular image of yourself, then you may limit your understanding if you're personality revolves a bit. You may also limit your own abilities if you become too invested in what you have been and not what you are or what you could be. There have been a few instances in my life when I saw myself as an ivory tower like that, unshakable and independent, but I was so dependent on myself that I limited my potential. There have also been times more recent when I became so dependent on another that my self-image hinged on the relationship and not who I really was. Self-confidence is tricky because it depends on your own perception of yourself and the perception of others. It reminds me of a quote from Dune:

    The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.

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