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  1. #11
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    all of the above describe me annoyingly too well... *grrr*... stay away from my unique embracing of my non-uniqueness...

    i'll add:
    - your self esteem has the best freaking defense in the world - every mistake and failure is another step forward in your self-seeking journey, every flaw in your character found is an awesome discovery, other people need to protect their esteem like a fortress, yours is a whore house inviting all the enemies in.
    - sharing your unique thoughts is sort of like a dog taking an intellectual dump, you just need to get it out, it rarely matters how important is the place, as long as you know your leaving it where others can smell it and its all the better if it's where you've sensed the unique smell of others, preferably of the opposite sex (perhaps more so for the Extroverted SX/SO 4s).
    - wanting to be helpful to others is actually a result of being unhealthy, and being a righteous prick is a result of being healthy, how screwed up is that? well, if your a 4, then you lavish in how screwed up that is, because your that much more special.

    more specifically for 4w5 7w8 8w7s:
    your 4's growth point is your 7s stress point, your main branch is your 7s growth point and your 8s stress point, your 8s growth point is your 4s stress point. try to get out of that entanglement.

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    ~you've always wanted to live in france
    Which then leads to the question: where do the 4s in France fantasize about living?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #13
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Which then leads to the question: where do the 4s in France fantasize about living?
    Somewhere distant, where people speak another language, the climate is the opposite, and the HDI is classified as high. My best guess is Australia.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ...when:

    - you swing between arrogance and insecurity; between pretension and self-deprecation
    - you tend to get mocked for being too earnest and over-analysing everything (at least until you work out it's better to keep your mouth shut!)
    - you can somehow manage to be both an intense cynic and a fervent idealist
    - you are filled with so much self-awareness and a compulsion to dissect everything, that have no idea how to just "be in the moment"
    - you over-indulge in the use of sarcasm
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    - wanting to be helpful to others is actually a result of being unhealthy, and being a righteous prick is a result of being healthy, how screwed up is that? well, if your a 4, then you lavish in how screwed up that is, because your that much more special.
    I don't agree with that. It's certainly true that we can be helpful just so we feel like a good person and hence, a bit more special, but the path to being truly healthy certainly isn't to be a righteous prick. The best thing you can do is to catch yourself doing something nice just because you wanted to help someone, without the ego boost.
    Chimera of Filth

    A gruesome beast with dripping flesh
    Clings to me as a sick fixture
    My throbbing heart it gnawed apart
    It stalks and hunts me through mirrors

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    I don't agree with that. It's certainly true that we can be helpful just so we feel like a good person and hence, a bit more special, but the path to being truly healthy certainly isn't to be a righteous prick. The best thing you can do is to catch yourself doing something nice just because you wanted to help someone, without the ego boost.
    sorry, i didn't provide the right context in what i meant - i was refering to the 4s stress point (2) and growth point (1):
    - by unhealthy helping (2), i didn't mean helping out of kindness, i meant helping others so they will depend on you, probably because you feel they do not understand you and its your only to connect.
    - by growing to be a self righous prick (1), i meant incorporating the perspectives of other people into your self-exploration, deriving external value to your self expression, recognizing traits in you that aren't merely fascinating self-observations making you unique but are also character flaws that need to be worked on for the sake of those you care for or may care for in the future.

    honestly i didn't hold much credibility in the directional arrows until recently, i mainly viewed the enneagram as an attempt to place structure on basic human fears with disregard to the credibility of the structure's resulting meaning, and i never had much of a 1 or of a 2 in me,, but in the last few years i experienced both extremes of stress and growth, and what can i say? ok maybe calling me a believer might be a stretch, but i take it with a little bit less salt then i used to.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Which then leads to the question: where do the 4s in France fantasize about living?
    They're french so in France. ;D
    They're sitting in a cafe in Rive Gauche gazing wistfully into some distant landscape that unfolds only to them amids the early morning hustle and bustle of Parisians going to work, with a worn copy of Rimbauds Fleurs Du Mal resting on the wrought iron table beside their steaming espresso, and they think "I love being a misunderstood french 4".

  8. #18
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    They're french so in France. ;D
    They're sitting in a cafe in Rive Gauche gazing wistfully into some distant landscape that unfolds only to them amids the early morning hustle and bustle of Parisians going to work, with a worn copy of Rimbauds Fleurs Du Mal resting on the wrought iron table beside their steaming espresso, and they think "I love being a misunderstood french 4".
    Ah! Mon reve! Lucky misunderstood French 4 bastards.

  9. #19
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    - You do things, play out scenarios, use music, use whatever, to amplify certain feelings.
    - You hold on to grudges/old wounds, nursing it and not letting go, feeling that somehow "they" are the ones responsible for depriving you of your dreams.
    - Contrary to popular belief, you actually do care for the opinions of others, to an extent, but only if their opinion is that of someone you respect, someone you feel possessing "good tastes." This is the elitist/aristocratic aspect of E4s.

    On a side note, how do guys feel about the integration/disintegration theories? For example E4 integrates to 1 when healthy, but disintegrates to 2 when unhealthy, easy right? But what about the wings? For example, if you are a 4w3, is it possible, when unhealthy, to exhibit tendencies of 4 disintegrating to 2 AND 3 disintegrating to 9? Similar with 4w5, disintegrating to both 2 and 7. I ask because I exhibit both the 2 clinginess and 9 apathy/slothiness when I was unhealthy and vice versa (integration to E1 and E6) when healthy. Can anyone relate to any of this?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    On a side note, how do guys feel about the integration/disintegration theories? For example E4 integrates to 1 when healthy, but disintegrates to 2 when unhealthy, easy right?
    yes, both seem to apply to me:

    in disintegration, when i don't feel i can communicate myself the way i want to to those around me, i find myself wanting to fulfill other's needs as a way to obtain a sense of security (i'm an SX/SO), which usually proves itself to be an illusion.
    in reintegration and recovery, m 1 menifestations go through my functions - coming out of shadow-function-mode, my Ne starts brainstorming alternative routes i could have taken, i start blaming myself for not taking them, i question myself and my choices, my Ti starts looking for ways to fix things and milks the lessons, and only later starts channeling my Fe as a way to formulate a leveled playing field with all perspectives involved (to the extent of the information i have at the time) and starts questioning other people's choices. often the resulting ethics is more internal - less "thou shell not do upon to others" and more "thus shell not persume/take-for-granted/misinterpret/etc".

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    But what about the wings? For example, if you are a 4w3, is it possible, when unhealthy, to exhibit tendencies of 4 disintegrating to 2 AND 3 disintegrating to 9? Similar with 4w5, disintegrating to both 2 and 7. I ask because I exhibit both the 2 clinginess and 9 apathy/slothiness when I was unhealthy and vice versa (integration to E1 and E6) when healthy. Can anyone relate to any of this?
    yes, i'm a 4w5 with w tri-type of 4w5-7w8-8w7, which makes sense with 8 being the 5 growth point and 7 being its stress point, and i can see how it applies to me. i think because 4s self esteem is very resilient (your searching for yourself, so nobody can really harm it by demonstrating you are wrong in how you view yourself), it might actually be more common for the wing's integration and disintegration points to show up then the main e-type.

    on the other hand, if you include the full tritype, things get interesting:
    my 4s integration point is my 7s disintegration point (1)
    my 4s disintegration point is my 8s integration point (2)
    my 7s integration point is my 8s disintegration point (5), also being my main wing.

    i'd be screwed.. although this would explain a lot.

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