• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Type 9] Eights, What's Your Take On This?

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness.
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

1. Level of Liberation
Heroic
inspiring
truly strong
courageous
selfless
gentle

Self-Surrendering
compassionate
merciful
forgiving
magnanimous
faithful
innocent
http://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personalitytype8

Do these two descriptions of the healthiest level of 8's irritate the fuck out of you, like they do me?
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
They don't irritate me, but I'm not an 8. I'm about as far from 8 as you can get. I like the healthy 8 description- if only all 8's were like this, I'd have an easier time dealing with this type. For some reason I find less healthy 8's difficult to deal with. To be fair, I find unhealthy people of any type difficult to deal with but I tend to find unhealthy 8's the most difficult. Probably because I have so little 8 in me that I find this type hard to identify with.


Why do the descriptions irritate you so, Metaphor? Do you feel like they don't describe you accurately? Are they too stereotypical? Do you feel like the healthy 8 is something you feel is unattainable, so you're irritated by that?
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
These descriptions are caricatures of people who I'd rather slit my wrists with a dull, rusty butter knife, than become.
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
Hm.

Heroic - I don't think this has much of a place here. Being heroic is.. in another category, to me.
inspiring - This one, I could see. If I am independent, and work on myself.. I seem to inspire those around me. An easy example of that is exercising and eating right. When I do it, I inspire my family to do it, at least for a while.
truly strong - I really do strive, hopelessly, for this quality. Feeling weak, or insufficient, is something that is hard for me. Strength from the inside, as well as the outside.
courageous - An idea that I hold in my head.. not something I feel I am necessarily.. more like something I look up to.
selfless - I can be very selfless at times.. but I consider this a necessary weakness at times instead of a strength. Sometimes too much of a weakness.
gentle - Not at all something I consider a strength in myself.. but I admire it so much in others. To be truly gentle. I tend to protect these sort of people instinctively.

Self-Surrendering - This, I do not consider a strength at all either. Sometimes it's necessary to get whatever goal I have in my way done.. but unless it's working towards a goal, to be self-surrendering for the sake of it, I do not consider a strength.
compassionate - This I absolutely consider a basic strength in humans. Compassion has a place in the world, so as long as you live around and interact with other people, it will always be considered a strength to me.
merciful - This I don't necessarily consider a strength, not nearly to the point of compassion. Having compassion, but being just, suffices for me. Again, I consider it a necessary weakness.
forgiving - This is an absolute must, based on my definition of it. To me.. forgiveness is when you stop allowing the actions of another person hurt and/or anger you. People having an influence on my personal state of mind is not something I entirely enjoy thinking about.
magnanimous - Wtf? I suppose they're indicating that we should respect authority and put ourselves in their shoes with this comment.. I can do that. But my respect to those above me depends entirely on the type of leaders they are.
faithful - ... Like in a relationship? .. I think Loyal would've been a more appropriate word here. I can be loyal, but I don't think this is necessarily a strength.
innocent - Not something I consider a strength. This is a weakness I struggle with a lot. Being naive and dumb about things.

All in all.. The description here sounds like two things:
1. A super hero
2. All words that dampen the effects of an 'unhealthy' 8, but many are not necessarily 'healthy' 8 personas. Many of these words are not something I would associate with an 8 at all.. but more "How to act like a normal person and merge into society you silly 8's" how-to words.

I don't think people are superheroes for a reason. I'm not particularly super, nor am I a hero. I think this description annoys me because, even though I admire these qualities, I don't think combined they are at all feasible or possible to expect, especially out of an 8. I think the 'average' 8 descriptions are more likely, and aren't really 'unhealthy' qualities. They're just more normal.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,559
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I rather like those descriptions.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
buzz-lightyear-shuttle.jpg
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Out of the ruins
Out from the wreckage
Can`t make the same mistake this time
We are the children
The last generation
We are the ones they left behind
And I wonder when we're ever gonna change
Living under the fear, till nothing else remains.

We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond
Thunderdome

Looking for something
We can rely on
There's gotta be something better out there
Love and compassion
Their day is coming
All else are castles built in the air
And I wonder when we're ever gonna change
Living under the fear, till nothing else remains

All the children say
We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond
Thunderdome
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
These descriptions are caricatures of people who I'd rather slit my wrists with a dull, rusty butter knife, than become.

What is a desirable description to you and what to aspire to become? That is what sort of traits in yourself would you find most ideal?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I didn't know Tina Turner was an authority on typology. The mind boggles...!

What is a desirable description to you and what to aspire to become? That is what sort of traits in yourself would you find most ideal?

I'd be interested in hearing more about that too.
(Indulge us non-Ni'ers -- we can't read your mind, remember? :) )
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Level 2: Self-assertive, self-confident, and strong: have learned to stand up for what they need and want. A resourceful, "can do" attitude and passionate inner drive.
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

There's a lot more than the above description for optimum but this is closer to it than all the rest combined. At least it doesn't include the hero, martyr, Fe-nutbar that the Level 1 descriptions included.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
  • Self-sufficient
  • Self-contained
  • A natural curiosity about the world
  • A desire to continually grow
  • No desire to impress others (which is how the Level 1 descriptions struck me, inauthentic with much external posturing.) but will take action when necessary, based on internal judgments.

A few more to add to the list of my version of emotionally healthy 8 traits.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

There's a lot more than the above description for optimum but this is closer to it than all the rest combined. At least it doesn't include the hero, martyr, Fe-nutbar that the Level 1 descriptions included.

I'm guessing it's the problem when writers are trying to merge Eight with their direction of Integration (Two)... what does that look like? If you get too much Two in there, it goes in the direction you abhor.

I think at core types stay the same, they are just "fleshed out" by their area of integration. I mean, Five goes to Eight theoretically, but you don't see Fives typically becoming outgoing, commanding, directive in nature. No, the natural resilience and strength of the Eight, as well as confidence in one's instincts, becomes accessible to the Five to be used in accordance with Five motivations and desires (for example, to engage the world with their ideas and to be able to stand up and promote/support their ideas in typical Five ways without shame or fear or overreaction).

In this case, Eight is tempered by Two. Eight tends to be self-focused, reacting from the gut without regards to other's feelings, imposing their will on others, being very directive, etc. The Two flavor allows Eight to have a sense of other people and their feelings and to channel their goals and energies into areas of service to others rather than being entirely self-absorbed and directed. It doesn't necessarily mean martrydom (which is kind of a power of the non-directive type); if the Eight risks death, it is merely to fall in battle facing against a foe for the sake of other people and goals that were considered with others (besides just the Eight's personal instincts) in mind. Warmth and genuine caring gets brought to the table.

At least, that's what I am speculating.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
In this case, Eight is tempered by Two. Eight tends to be self-focused, reacting from the gut without regards to other's feelings, imposing their will on others, being very directive, etc. The Two flavor allows Eight to have a sense of other people and their feelings and to channel their goals and energies into areas of service to others rather than being entirely self-absorbed and directed. It doesn't necessarily mean martrydom (which is kind of a power of the non-directive type); if the Eight risks death, it is merely to fall in battle facing against a foe for the sake of other people and goals that were considered with others (besides just the Eight's personal instincts) in mind. Warmth and genuine caring gets brought to the table.

At least, that's what I am speculating.
The bolded parts are Fe assumptions of what's a good or bad person, unselfish or selfish person. And yet, people looking to others to be unselfish to them, are in essence viewing this from a position of self-interest or selfishness. Rather than allowing societally accepted obligations to drive, my natural preference is Fi-based, allowing internal values to drive.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The bolded parts are Fe assumptions of what's a good or bad person, unselfish or selfish person. And yet, people looking to others to be unselfish to them, are in essence viewing this from a position of self-interest or selfishness. Rather than allowing societally accepted obligations to drive, my natural preference is Fi-based, allowing internal values to drive.

Umm.... Fe and Fi are irrelevant in the Enneagram. You're drawing a distinction and then reacting against it that does not exist, by trying to equate Two's completely with ISFJs and Eights completely with ExTJs.

(Aside from that, looking at what you bolded in my post, are you saying that Fi people are not aware of other people's feelings and do not want to give to them or be in service to them? I don't think that would be accurate. I'm painting with a general brush as well. Maybe your warmth/personal service is more internalized or focused on individuals rather than on groups or driven by roles; but generally it's still all service to others in some way, or behavior that is self-expressive but STILL ends up serving/helping others even if it's not true altruism.)

Maybe there are simply parts of the Enneagram theory that you personally don't identify with. I'm not sure myself how nine separately constructed archetypes could realistically cover the entire spectrum of human beings. (Function theory at least theoretically does, by separating functions into binary pairs that technically cover all ground even if realistically the pairs/distinctions themselves might not be set up correctly... but the enneagram easily leaves some undefined territory.)
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Umm.... Fe and Fi are irrelevant in the Enneagram. You're drawing a distinction and then reacting against it that does not exist, by trying to equate Two's completely with ISFJs and Eights completely with ExTJs.
More like disliking the entire E2 description and consideration as a healthy move for an e8 and using the MBTI crutch to explain why. There's a distinct difference between this and setting up a straw man to knock down.

(Aside from that, looking at what you bolded in my post, are you saying that Fi people are not aware of other people's feelings and do not want to give to them or be in service to them? I don't think that would be accurate. I'm painting with a general brush as well. Maybe your warmth/personal service is more internalized or focused on individuals rather than on groups or driven by roles; but generally it's still all service to others in some way, or behavior that is self-expressive but STILL ends up serving/helping others.)
I have to giggle a little since the bolded statement is conclusive, where my return comments will be open-ended. :laugh:

There's no reason why self-interest and public interest can't play nice together, marching to the same drummer, as long as the individual 8 is authentic to values and self, instead of being pushed around externally.

Maybe there are simply parts of the Enneagram theory that you personally don't identify with. I'm not sure myself how nine separately constructed archetypes could realistically cover the entire spectrum of human beings. (Function theory at least theoretically does, by separating functions into binary pairs that technically cover all ground even if realistically the pairs/distinctions themselves might not be set up correctly... but the enneagram easily leaves some undefined territory.)
The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives. Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,145
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
More like disliking the entire E2 description and consideration as a healthy move for an e8 and using the MBTI crutch to explain why. There's a distinct difference between this and setting up a straw man to knock down.

That's one issue with the Enneagram. The Directions of Integration/Disintegration (IMO) were attempts to let the picture itself dictate the typology theory, as well as tie nine non-comprehensive types together in some way. Why does Eight go to Two rather than to One or Three? Because Enneagram theory says it does... lol.

I have to giggle a little since the bolded statement is conclusive, where my return comments will be open-ended. :laugh:

We're both participating in the Function Exchange program.

Others who are interested can sign up after this particular performance has concluded. Thank you.

There's no reason why self-interest and public interest can't play nice together, marching to the same drummer, as long as the individual 8 is authentic to values and self, instead of being pushed around externally.

Which is all true. I'm simply saying there is probably not as sharp a distinction with relational values as Fi/Fe can make out to be.

The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives.

Lol -- that's probably the only part I find interesting in the Enneagram, since it's kind of unique and actually tries to proceed rationally even if various assumptions might be faulty. Otherwise it's just astrological-style mumbo-jumbo, with these arbitrary nine types someone threw together.

Riso and Hudson also naturally brought out that aspect of Enneagram due to their heavily Catholic background. Of course they are going to emphasize a strong component of spiritual growth.

Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!

Instinctual stackings are interesting, I think, as well -- what's funny is that they seem more like an "expansion set" or a graft unto the Enneagram, rather than part of the natural Enneagram itself.
 

Udog

Seriously Delirious
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
5,290
MBTI Type
INfp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Do these two descriptions of the healthiest level of 8's irritate the fuck out of you, like they do me?

I wish there was more input from 8s here. What's interesting to me is that the description talks about how 8s can be very giving, but it has to be their own idea, otherwise they'll resist it with mind and body. In other words, Enneagram almost predicts that 8s will violently resist the higher levels of the Enneagram unless it's their own idea. :laugh:

First, I think there needs to be a distinction when it comes to integration to 2. There are 2 levels - security and integration. Security is low level... it's taking on the traits of a 2 in an undeveloped, almost default fashion. Taking on traits of the 2 at this level is not a pathway to growth, but a pathway that stifles growth. Don't confuse this with integration.

At the level of integration, it's not about becoming a 2, but learning how certain traits of the 2 can become part of the 8. They are not blindly subsumed, but used to flesh out the natural strengths of the 8 in order to create balance and dimension to their personalities. They are integrated.

Here's what I'm wondering. 8s value independence through skilled use of personal effort. 8s are self reliant, and respect other people who are the same. Do 8s feel that to be level 1, they have to give that up? Do 8s believe that level 1 directly contradicts what an 8 is supposed to be about?

Because that's not how I'm reading the Enneagram description at all, but perhaps I'm the one misreading it.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,559
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives. Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!

I like those emotional health levels. You can take it with a grain of salt - a general framework in a sense from really unhealthy to really healthy.

What I'd like to know is why the Level 1 language bothers you so much. I've tried to glean it from your postings here but haven't really been able to discern an answer to that question.

"Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness."
 
Top