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  1. #51
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Metaphor, do you agree with the level 1 fear of the E8? "Of being harmed or controlled by others" Because with the enneagram, the desires and traits for each level are based on overcoming that level's fear. For example, the enneagram is trying to say that once an E8 overcomes the fear of being harmed or controlled, they learn how to be forgiving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Udog, these emotional discussions are exhausting!
    You need more sleep, so it's good for you!

    From the link in the opening post that you so kindly gave to me:

    1. Level of Liberation
    Heroic - Fe
    inspiring - Fe
    truly strong
    courageous
    selfless - Fe
    gentle
    Self-Surrendering - Fe
    compassionate - Fe
    merciful - Fe
    forgiving - Fe
    magnanimous - Fe
    faithful
    innocent

    I've tagged all the traits defined as Level 1 that pertain to Fe. E2s are all about the ones tagged. Hence E2s are Fe-based.
    I don't see any of those things being necessarily Fe... it all depends on how it's being done and the motivation. For example, I never set out to inspire anyone. I'm just doing my own thing and trying to overcome personal issues that hold me back. Blogging about it helps solidify ideas in my mind or release a bit of stress. I never expected to inspire anyone though, so the fact that I did was very surprising to me! For me, it was all very Fi.

    Same with heroism. Some people simply did what they felt was right, based on personal conviction and values, and still were labeled a hero. Fi.

    I do my best to forgive because when someone else has the capacity to make me mad, they own me. They own and control my energy, and I don't like giving people that type of power over my mindset. My ability to forgive was developed based on Fi values.

    Now it's your turn to prove to me that heroes are all about altruism. For that matter, hero or not hero, how many people do you know are altruistic in its purist sense. Even feeling good about doing heroic deeds or being a self-sacrificial martyr has its payback for the individual.
    Why create a dichotomy? I don't see why I must prove heroes are altruistic to disprove heroes are narcissistic. Yes, heroes, even martyrs, get a reward for their behaviors. That reward isn't necessarily feeding personal ego, though.

    Is a woman who goes into a burning building to save her neighbor's children doing so out of narcissism? Is it possible for that to be considered heroic?

    As far as an 8 moving to 5, instead of moving further towards a Fe based model (2) which leans towards attempting to offset an instinctual personality type like an E8 with an emotional Fe based greater good model, the move towards the 5 would be using the intellect to balance the instinctual. Instead of encouraging the raging in your face extrovert towards more emotionalism, it will counter-balance with logical thought and off-setting caution, particularly an 8w7.
    Okay, so your pathway to growth is to learn how to ignore your "raging in your face extrovert" emotions?

    EDIT: It's interesting. Your 7 wing suggests 5 being a path to growth, but as an 8 moving to a 5 is generally done as an avoidance mechanism done under stress. I can see there being something here, but it strikes me as a very tricky way to grow under enneagram theory.

  2. #52
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Metaphor, do you agree with the level 1 fear of the E8? "Of being harmed or controlled by others" Because with the enneagram, the desires and traits for each level are based on overcoming that level's fear. For example, the enneagram is trying to say that once an E8 overcomes the fear of being harmed or controlled, they learn how to be forgiving.
    That's how I see it. It is about overcoming one's fears and keeping your natural defense mechanisms from hindering forward progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I don't see any of those things being necessarily Fe... it all depends on how it's being done and the motivation. For example, I never set out to inspire anyone. I'm just doing my own thing and trying to overcome personal issues that hold me back. Blogging about it helps solidify ideas in my mind or release a bit of stress. I never expected to inspire anyone though, so the fact that I did was very surprising to me! For me, it was all very Fi.
    I don't think any of those things are Fe and can say it with some level of certainty having just spent the last two weeks trying to really understand the difference between Fe and Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    EDIT: It's interesting. Your 7 wing suggests 5 being a path to growth, but as an 8 moving to a 5 is generally done as an avoidance mechanism done under stress. I can see there being something here, but it strikes me as a very tricky way to grow under enneagram theory.
    If the theory is right, moving towards 5 would prevent one from growing. It would simply strengthen our defense mechanisms, making us less flexible and more likely to do things for the wrong reasons. I don't think wings have anything to do with it but I know less about enneagram than other things.

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  3. #53
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Metaphor, do you agree with the level 1 fear of the E8? "Of being harmed or controlled by others" Because with the enneagram, the desires and traits for each level are based on overcoming that level's fear. For example, the enneagram is trying to say that once an E8 overcomes the fear of being harmed or controlled, they learn how to be forgiving.
    Harmed? No. Controlled? Yes.

    Nowhere have I said that forgiveness wasn't worthwhile. But rote anything is pretty meaningless.

    I don't see any of those things being necessarily Fe... it all depends on how it's being done and the motivation. For example, I never set out to inspire anyone. I'm just doing my own thing and trying to overcome personal issues that hold me back. Blogging about it helps solidify ideas in my mind or release a bit of stress. I never expected to inspire anyone though, so the fact that I did was very surprising to me! For me, it was all very Fi.

    I do my best to forgive because when someone else has the capacity to make me mad, they own me. They own and control my energy, and I don't like giving people that type of power over my mindset. My ability to forgive was developed based on Fi values.
    This is different from wanting to be a source of inspiration and deliberately working towards this goal.

    Same with heroism. Some people simply did what they felt was right, based on personal conviction and values, and still were labeled a hero. Fi.
    This is once again different than working towards being heroic or deliberately martyring oneself to attain heroic status.

    Why create a dichotomy? I don't see why I must prove heroes are altruistic to disprove heroes are narcissistic. Yes, heroes, even martyrs, get a reward for their behaviors. That reward isn't necessarily feeding personal ego, though.
    Since we each have stances and are debating the issues, each presenter must prove their stance, much like my proof to you about E2s and Fe.
    Is a woman who goes into a burning building to save her neighbor's children doing so out of narcissism? Is it possible for that to be considered heroic?
    While it may appear to be an act of heroism, it wasn't a manufactured act. It's biological imperative that drives mothers to take bullets or burns for their children. Species continuity.

    Okay, so your pathway to growth is to learn how to ignore your "raging in your face extrovert" emotions?
    No. It's offsetting instinctual reaction with logic.

    EDIT: It's interesting. Your 7 wing suggests 5 being a path to growth, but as an 8 moving to a 5 is generally done as an avoidance mechanism done under stress. I can see there being something here, but it strikes me as a very tricky way to grow under enneagram theory.
    Bam! You finally understand.

    As far as it being tricky, don't think so. It instinctively feels right.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    And being a senior level software developer is a big deal?
    What exactly is the problem with being a software developer? And by all means, define "big deal."

  5. #55
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    What exactly is the problem with being a software developer? And by all means, define "big deal."
    Take a serious look at how it was used. That's all I'm prepared to say.

  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    And being a senior level software developer is a big deal?
    I definitely have a weakness in understanding coding and software in general.. so to be senior level would be something that would be extremely difficult for me to attain. I don't think she should be throwing her weight around like she's Bill Gates or something, since that distracts from the OP, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post


    This thread is for 8's, btw... not 9's trying to be 8's.
    I don't agree with this at all.

    Lets look at it: 8, no wings, has made a genuine post twice in response to the thread, and no one has said anything in reply.
    w8 has made a couple comments, and has gotten attention and responses all over the place. I think she seems extremely welcomed, if you ask me.

    Plenty of people have already participated that aren't 8s, and she was upfront about her type, so let's not be so snarky plz?

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I can see why you don't like it. It does have the heavy tinge of type 2 in it, while the description for the healthiest 5 for example just seems like, well, a 5. I guess at the healthiest level the 8 should be able to feel like they can be those things without fear: without feeling that they will be taken advantage of and controlled by opening up. They can let up with the constant vigilance. I definitely don't think they're like the description above all the time, like it implies.

    The second level does sound better.
    This was a great post, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    im not going to read all the comments. You do know level 1 and 2 is something only very few 8s gets to, right? Usually level 3-5 is the normal 8 description.
    This is absolutely correct. Based on what Jock and I were implying as well, level ones seem like a role model moreso than something realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yeah they're all like that. They're basically describing the upper limits of the types. I don't think many get that far, but it seems like they sell these "levels of health" as though everyone hits them at some point. IMO, Helen Palmer's spectrum of healthy/unhealthy is far more realistic in terms of scope.
    :3 Ill have to look up these descriptions to see if I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    There is a distinct gender divide and I, as a woman feel the enneagram descriptions for 8's doesn't address this at all. The generalised description of 8's are easy to relate to, to some degree. That's why I don't question that I'm an 8w7 but one who believes that moving towards a 5 is more applicable to myself, for the purposes of self-actualisation.

    Balance shouldn't be towards more instinctual levels, which includes emotions, especially Fe based expectations for Level 1.

    So, ultimately, I reject the upper health levels and find them, as well as the unhealthy levels, too over-the-top. I have no interest in becoming a martyr and a hero. Very emotionally unhealthy.
    Do you associate many of the qualities of an upper 8 with the very things society frowns upon within women (while also promoting within women ironically enough)?

    I found the descriptions to be over-the-top, indeed.. unattainable, probably. But I didn't think that the 8s lacked anything for women that they gave to men at all. The type 8 description matches me well.. if anything, I find that the way I express my type 8 ways is supressed via society, but not that the descriptions didn't try to accomodate me. They're fairly unisex.

    I don't think anyone should truly become a hero.. I'll never truly do crazy stunts, steal from tombs, wrestle crocs, and wear a spandex suit (okay, maybe someday the last one will happen..) but it doesn't stop Lara Croft from being a childhood hero of mine. I think those ideals can be very useful, even if they are not exactly what one will end up being. Like shooting for the highest goal you possibly can find, but being satisfied with that your striving turned out.
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  7. #57
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I definitely have a weakness in understanding coding and software in general.. so to be senior level would be something that would be extremely difficult for me to attain. I don't think she should be throwing her weight around like she's Bill Gates or something, since that distracts from the OP, however.
    That was just a cat game of e-penising and a prime example of insecurity plus.

    Do you associate many of the qualities of an upper 8 with the very things society frowns upon within women (while also promoting within women ironically enough)?
    Not societal definitions of femininity but my own internal compass of how I feel as a woman which does include some societal interpretations of feminity but not all. These two aren't mutually inclusive or exclusive. The driving force is different.

    I found the descriptions to be over-the-top, indeed.. unattainable, probably. But I didn't think that the 8s lacked anything for women that they gave to men at all. The type 8 description matches me well.. if anything, I find that the way I express my type 8 ways is supressed via society, but not that the descriptions didn't try to accomodate me. They're fairly unisex.

    I don't think anyone should truly become a hero.. I'll never truly do crazy stunts, steal from tombs, wrestle crocs, and wear a spandex suit (okay, maybe someday the last one will happen..) but it doesn't stop Lara Croft from being a childhood hero of mine. I think those ideals can be very useful, even if they are not exactly what one will end up being. Like shooting for the highest goal you possibly can find, but being satisfied with that your striving turned out.
    Yes, over-the-top but my view is that they're attainable but only in an unhealthy way.

  8. #58
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Yes, over-the-top but my view is that they're attainable but only in an unhealthy way.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

    To me, this sounds a bit defeated.. "Only in an unhealthy way." It is like you're rejecting these ideals so strongly, and looking at them so narrowly, because you don't want to admit that they may actually be good for you. I'm sure there are many people in history, and even today, that exhibit these things within themselves genuinely and are better, stronger people because of it. You're looking at this through a tiny slit, instead of seeing the whole thing at once.

    To me, extreme behavior leads to a failure to have variety, which is unhealthy in people. I think it's a give-in that being EXTREMELY self-less, and ALWAYS self-surrendering will obviously be unhealthy traits in and of themselves. But, I think this is exactly why they're there.

    I don't know if an 8 is truly capable of being extremely self-less.. but to know that this is a healthy trait, means to take the time to think about it, and strive for this at least to the point where you realize not everyone is out to take advantage of your kindness. If you told another type this, than maybe selflessness is in the description of their unhealthy states because essentially they are fairly self-sacrificing.. and so they create thay martyr mentality via self-fulfilling prophecies and such that creates an unhealthy mindset. With 8s, however, I have little worry that an 8 will truly be a martyr. I just don't see it.

    But it never says it has to be so extreme. So black and white. Either you're a martyr or you're a selfish bastard. It is saying that having selflessness in your life and your actions will be healthy for an 8. I agree with that. There are many shades of gray in these descriptions.. Having a little bit of each will balance it all out. To just look at "self-surrendering" I could definitely see that an unhealthy trait by itself. With all the other traits, creating a larger picture, it does create a person that seems too good to be true for us 8s.. and yet, that 'being' that's too good to be true, some of it still feels attainable. Like, maybe we can get close to that picture. Be a great leader, since it's so impossible to be a perfect leader. I don't think there is anything unhealthy about that.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  9. #59
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. To me, extreme behavior leads to a failure to have variety, which is unhealthy in people. I think it's a give-in that being EXTREMELY self-less, and ALWAYS self-surrendering will obviously be unhealthy traits in and of themselves. But, I think this is exactly why they're there.

    I don't know if an 8 is truly capable of being extremely self-less.. but to know that this is a healthy trait, means to take the time to think about it, and strive for this at least to the point where you realize not everyone is out to take advantage of your kindness. If you told another type this, than maybe selflessness is in the description of their unhealthy states because essentially they are fairly self-sacrificing.. and so they create thay martyr mentality via self-fulfilling prophecies and such that creates an unhealthy mindset. With 8s, however, I have little worry that an 8 will truly be a martyr. I just don't see it.

    But it never says it has to be so extreme. So black and white. Either you're a martyr or you're a selfish bastard. It is saying that having selflessness in your life and your actions will be healthy for an 8. I agree with that. There are many shades of gray in these descriptions.. Having a little bit of each will balance it all out. To just look at "self-surrendering" I could definitely see that an unhealthy trait by itself. With all the other traits, creating a larger picture, it does create a person that seems too good to be true for us 8s.. and yet, that 'being' that's too good to be true, some of it still feels attainable. Like, maybe we can get close to that picture. Be a great leader, since it's so impossible to be a perfect leader. I don't think there is anything unhealthy about that.
    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree since the beliefs we source from, appear to be different. And that's okay too.

    Where we differ is that all ethics and morals are subjective since they're based on perception. So the judgment of good or bad will also be subjective. With this in mind, how do you quantify what's a hero except by subjective ethics and morals?

  10. #60
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    You're talking like a 5. I don't think there is anything wrong with subjective things, either. :3

    It is funny, because we can say "Superman is a superhero".. Everyone would agree to that (unless you're really an ENTP that likes to argue for the sake of it... or have something against superman because he totally didn't sign your book when you were 7 and went to see him on Ice.) but when asked why he's a superhero, there are a million different answers. There are different kinds of heroes, just like anything else. When you say "Superhero", you list qualities like "Super powers, abnormal abilities, etc." When you say "A realistic hero", you could say "Someone who has accomplished a lot" or "Someone who has started a shelter for animals" or even "mothers". When it's as abstract as a superhero, we have a better idea of what we want out of a hero than when we say a realistic hero. There are too many varieties to say just "hero". This, to me, is a suffix.. the prefix is what defines it. You can't just say "I ache." You always say "I have a bellyache."
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    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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