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  1. #41
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Yeah. Take a look at Ghandi. The unhealthy, condescending, narcissistic and superior bastard. Who did he think he was?
    While I admire and respect what Ghandi accomplished, I don't hold his values and wouldn't want his life or to be him. I don't feel his values are necessarily healthy ones for any human being. But then, I also don't embrace Jesus Christ.

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.
    probably true, but don't hand them guns and tempt them to try.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Yeah. Take a look at Ghandi. The unhealthy, condescending, narcissistic and superior bastard. Who did he think he was?
    Ghandhi. (Of course.)





    (*hisses* "I'm GHANDHI. Tell all your friends." *drops guy off roof*)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    probably true, but don't hand them guns and tempt them to try.
    If the gun is given barrel first, where's the harm?

  4. #44
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    It was once explained to me that many men want to be considered heroes and I poo-pooed it. But within this thread, it appears to be so. One of those gender divide issues!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    don't hand them guns and tempt them to try.
    True and much like "hot sex", gun usage has less to do with type and more to do with experience (and other considerations).

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    It was once explained to me that many men want to be considered heroes and I poo-pooed it. But within this thread, it appears to be so. One of those gender divide issues!
    Men are born with stones, more testosterone, and typically more muscle mass than women. Since hormones are linked to behavior, it makes sense that men would naturally want to be considered heros. Theory from evolutionary biology seems to support this.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Yeah. Take a look at Ghandi. The unhealthy, condescending, narcissistic and superior bastard. Who did he think he was?





    I agree with perfectgirl.
    I get it. The person becomes a true hero because they have mastered themselves and therefore are an even more powerful leader than they would be by simply being overbearing and controlling. Leading by example as well as by design and force of personality. A truly wise, mature leader who can accomplish big things.

    I don't think that's narcissistic, or being a martyr, and I certainly don't see how it could be considered both at the same time.

  7. #47
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    You're not paying any attention to what I've previously written about moving towards a two. The integration is one that I personally refuse to make since it means embracing Fe beliefs which I fully reject as what's considered emotionally healthy for an 8, by Riso and Hudson. Heroes and martyrs are about as far from being emotionally healthy as you can get.
    I heard you about Fe beliefs, but you haven't really made a case about how integration of the 2 is Fe, so I couldn't really do anything with it. I'm not seeing anything in your argument that goes beyond "Caring about other people / putting other people's needs first" equals Fe. Which isn't what Fe is about.

    Can you flesh out how exactly integration of 2 equates to Fe values?

    Level 1 (At Their Best):

    May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.
    You can't simply add an adjective like "narcissistic" before the word hero so you can then claim that being a hero is emotionally unhealthy. Why do you assume that acts of heroism are born of a desire to feed an out-of-control ego?

    Don't get me wrong... if that's not for you then that's cool. I just don't understand the need to add a negative slant to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    There is a distinct gender divide and I, as a woman feel the enneagram descriptions for 8's doesn't address this at all. The generalised description of 8's are easy to relate to, to some degree. That's why I don't question that I'm an 8w7 but one who believes that moving towards a 5 is more applicable to myself, for the purposes of self-actualisation.
    Can you explain how moving towards a 5 is a path of actualization for an 8? What does that look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    It was once explained to me that many men want to be considered heroes and I poo-pooed it. But within this thread, it appears to be so. One of those gender divide issues!
    Very good point, as men do tend to need a purpose, cause, or reason for living that women tend to not share. Yeah, I can definitely see an inherent gender bias in the E8 description that likely clouds things up a bit.

  8. #48
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Udog, these emotional discussions are exhausting!

    From the link in the opening post that you so kindly gave to me:

    1. Level of Liberation
    Heroic - Fe
    inspiring - Fe
    truly strong
    courageous
    selfless - Fe
    gentle
    Self-Surrendering - Fe
    compassionate - Fe
    merciful - Fe
    forgiving - Fe
    magnanimous - Fe
    faithful
    innocent

    I've tagged all the traits defined as Level 1 that pertain to Fe. E2s are all about the ones tagged. Hence E2s are Fe-based.

    Now it's your turn to prove to me that heroes are all about altruism. For that matter, hero or not hero, how many people do you know are altruistic in its purist sense. Even feeling good about doing heroic deeds or being a self-sacrificial martyr has its payback for the individual.

    As far as an 8 moving to 5, instead of moving further towards a Fe based model (2) which leans towards attempting to offset an instinctual personality type like an E8 with an emotional Fe based greater good model, the move towards the 5 would be using the intellect to balance the instinctual. Instead of encouraging the raging in your face extrovert towards more emotionalism, it will counter-balance with logical thought and off-setting caution, particularly an 8w7.

  9. #49
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    I want to flesh out a worthy reply, but quickly.... I've been called inspiring and forgiving by a couple of people on here. (Crazy, I know.) Would you consider me Fe?

    I can assure you that anyone that I inspired I did so unintentionally!

  10. #50
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Yes, you have 8 processes of which one is Fe. I only use 6.25 cognitive processes, instead of the normal 8. No Fe, very low Fi and Si. Not E2 material, what-so-ever.

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