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  1. #21
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    It almost sounds like Zen samurai-mentalities.. Maybe Type 8s can become more healthy through the art of the samurai.

    But really.. There's nothing wrong with those qualities, and looking to them. There's a balance with everything. Puppy mentioned 8's having to notice that what drives them is also what can destroy them.. this is absolutely true. It's almost like having an absolute power.. At the risk of sounding like I'm in a movie or something, I don't think type 8s are totally healthy when they indulge into their type completely. Finding any description of a "great leader" from others will give you the type 8s at their best. Uncorrupt, ideal, just, kind, honorable and respectful leaders can give off an innocent, yet courageous vibe that can make others go "Ugh.. what a chump." But really, these ideals are what keep us tamed. We want to lead, in some shape or form. Finding good leadership strategies, and using them with everything we do in life, helps keep us at peace.

    Like I said before.. my thought was that these just sound SO impossible and comic-book-like, that striving for them would almost set us up for failure. Type 8s are probably WAY more often average-health than they are healthy.. It's a daunting task to say "You'll be healthy when you're a perfect leader or have the qualities of superman." The description is an ideal shot for from way afar.. but I think it ought to be more down to earth and attainable. No one will be able to completely agree to or be compatible with a majority of the description without being self-absorbed and delusional to an extent. We'll always fall way short of that post.

    As far as this "Fe" debate on those bolded texts.. The description is assuming that the 8 wants to serve others and be a part of society.. but it's saying that, I feel, because type 8s DO have a desire to leave their mark on people or their environment in some way, shape, or form. It's difficult to find a type 8 that wants to be reclusive from society because of that. They don't want to be harmed or controled, they want to be the one pulling the strings. It's a lot of potential responsibility.. not being drilled into whats best for society is like asking someone selfish to take command of an area. It IS assuming whats right or wrong for society.. but As type 8s, we need to acknowledge that we need that. We always know what's best for us, or so we think.. so we need to invest more time into what's good for others and how our actions impact them.
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  2. #22
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    At the level of integration, it's not about becoming a 2, but learning how certain traits of the 2 can become part of the 8. They are not blindly subsumed, but used to flesh out the natural strengths of the 8 in order to create balance and dimension to their personalities. They are integrated.

    Here's what I'm wondering. 8s value independence through skilled use of personal effort. 8s are self reliant, and respect other people who are the same. Do 8s feel that to be level 1, they have to give that up? Do 8s believe that level 1 directly contradicts what an 8 is supposed to be about?

    Because that's not how I'm reading the Enneagram description at all, but perhaps I'm the one misreading it.
    You're not paying any attention to what I've previously written about moving towards a two. The integration is one that I personally refuse to make since it means embracing Fe beliefs which I fully reject as what's considered emotionally healthy for an 8, by Riso and Hudson. Heroes and martyrs are about as far from being emotionally healthy as you can get.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I like those emotional health levels. You can take it with a grain of salt - a general framework in a sense from really unhealthy to really healthy.

    What I'd like to know is why the Level 1 language bothers you so much. I've tried to glean it from your postings here but haven't really been able to discern an answer to that question.
    Breaking it down:

    Level 1 (At Their Best):

    Become self-restrained - assumes that 8s require self-restraint. Not everyone will be nutbar 8. Some of us do have control over ourselves already.
    and magnanimous, - this word bleeds condescension. Superior to inferior.
    merciful and forbearing - more condescension. Superior to inferior.
    mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. - complete and utter religious or spiritual horse pucks.
    Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. - More posturing. Who cares about self-sacrifice and lasting influence? Martyrs need their heads examined.
    May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Breaking it down:

    Level 1 (At Their Best):

    Become self-restrained - assumes that 8s require self-restraint. Not everyone will be nutbar 8. Some of us do have control over ourselves already.
    and magnanimous, - this word bleeds condescension. Superior to inferior.
    merciful and forbearing - more condescension. Superior to inferior.
    mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. - complete and utter religious or spiritual horse pucks.
    Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. - More posturing. Who cares about self-sacrifice and lasting influence? Martyrs need their heads examined.
    May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.
    ^Nobody here is talking (or alluding to) extremes like that. There's an optimum state of being and once you discover it for yourself, you'll understand.

  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    ^Nobody here is talking (or alluding to) extremes like that. There's an optimum state of being and once you discover it for yourself, you'll understand.
    Oh, so everyone is basically saying that the quoted Level 1 which came from the Enneagram Institute, is full of it just like what I'm saying. Glad to hear this!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Oh, so everyone is basically saying that the quoted Level 1 which came from the Enneagram Institute, is full of it just like I'm saying. Glad to hear this!
    No. I think level 1 sounds balanced. A strong person capable of doing what's best for the overall well being of society as a whole. Self-restraint is not nutbar, it's an attractive quality. Merciful is beautiful. Self-surrender is so humbling to witness. Heroism is truly admirable. If the world would be more like this, it would be like heaven.

  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    No. I think level 1 sounds balanced. A strong person capable of doing what's best for the overall well being of society as a whole. Self-restraint is not nutbar, it's an attractive quality. Merciful is beautiful. Self-surrender is so humbling to witness. Heroism is truly admirable. If the world would be more like this, it would be like heaven.
    Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.
    I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.

  8. #28
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.


    Debating with you is like winning the Special Olympics. It's always retarded!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.
    Weren't you like the biggest self-proclaimed INFP in the world before? Yes, I remember.
    Now all of a sudden your an INTP type 8.. lol.. that's hilarious.

    What's even more funny is that you think you could actually run circles around Metaphor. She would eat you for breakfast.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    Weren't you like the biggest self-proclaimed INFP in the world before? Yes, I remember.
    Now all of a sudden your an INTP type 8.. lol.. that's hilarious.

    What's even more funny is that you think you could actually run circles around Metaphor. She would eat you for breakfast.
    I'm a senior level software developer that cares about people. I'm happy to entertain you. Yes, I could run circles around anyone that does not operate at optimum (level 1); it's not up for debate; it's a fact.

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