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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I didn't know Tina Turner was an authority on typology. The mind boggles...!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    What is a desirable description to you and what to aspire to become? That is what sort of traits in yourself would you find most ideal?
    I'd be interested in hearing more about that too.
    (Indulge us non-Ni'ers -- we can't read your mind, remember? )
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Level 2: Self-assertive, self-confident, and strong: have learned to stand up for what they need and want. A resourceful, "can do" attitude and passionate inner drive.
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

    There's a lot more than the above description for optimum but this is closer to it than all the rest combined. At least it doesn't include the hero, martyr, Fe-nutbar that the Level 1 descriptions included.

  3. #13
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    • Self-sufficient
    • Self-contained
    • A natural curiosity about the world
    • A desire to continually grow
    • No desire to impress others (which is how the Level 1 descriptions struck me, inauthentic with much external posturing.) but will take action when necessary, based on internal judgments.


    A few more to add to the list of my version of emotionally healthy 8 traits.

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

    There's a lot more than the above description for optimum but this is closer to it than all the rest combined. At least it doesn't include the hero, martyr, Fe-nutbar that the Level 1 descriptions included.
    I'm guessing it's the problem when writers are trying to merge Eight with their direction of Integration (Two)... what does that look like? If you get too much Two in there, it goes in the direction you abhor.

    I think at core types stay the same, they are just "fleshed out" by their area of integration. I mean, Five goes to Eight theoretically, but you don't see Fives typically becoming outgoing, commanding, directive in nature. No, the natural resilience and strength of the Eight, as well as confidence in one's instincts, becomes accessible to the Five to be used in accordance with Five motivations and desires (for example, to engage the world with their ideas and to be able to stand up and promote/support their ideas in typical Five ways without shame or fear or overreaction).

    In this case, Eight is tempered by Two. Eight tends to be self-focused, reacting from the gut without regards to other's feelings, imposing their will on others, being very directive, etc. The Two flavor allows Eight to have a sense of other people and their feelings and to channel their goals and energies into areas of service to others rather than being entirely self-absorbed and directed. It doesn't necessarily mean martrydom (which is kind of a power of the non-directive type); if the Eight risks death, it is merely to fall in battle facing against a foe for the sake of other people and goals that were considered with others (besides just the Eight's personal instincts) in mind. Warmth and genuine caring gets brought to the table.

    At least, that's what I am speculating.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In this case, Eight is tempered by Two. Eight tends to be self-focused, reacting from the gut without regards to other's feelings, imposing their will on others, being very directive, etc. The Two flavor allows Eight to have a sense of other people and their feelings and to channel their goals and energies into areas of service to others rather than being entirely self-absorbed and directed. It doesn't necessarily mean martrydom (which is kind of a power of the non-directive type); if the Eight risks death, it is merely to fall in battle facing against a foe for the sake of other people and goals that were considered with others (besides just the Eight's personal instincts) in mind. Warmth and genuine caring gets brought to the table.

    At least, that's what I am speculating.
    The bolded parts are Fe assumptions of what's a good or bad person, unselfish or selfish person. And yet, people looking to others to be unselfish to them, are in essence viewing this from a position of self-interest or selfishness. Rather than allowing societally accepted obligations to drive, my natural preference is Fi-based, allowing internal values to drive.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    The bolded parts are Fe assumptions of what's a good or bad person, unselfish or selfish person. And yet, people looking to others to be unselfish to them, are in essence viewing this from a position of self-interest or selfishness. Rather than allowing societally accepted obligations to drive, my natural preference is Fi-based, allowing internal values to drive.
    Umm.... Fe and Fi are irrelevant in the Enneagram. You're drawing a distinction and then reacting against it that does not exist, by trying to equate Two's completely with ISFJs and Eights completely with ExTJs.

    (Aside from that, looking at what you bolded in my post, are you saying that Fi people are not aware of other people's feelings and do not want to give to them or be in service to them? I don't think that would be accurate. I'm painting with a general brush as well. Maybe your warmth/personal service is more internalized or focused on individuals rather than on groups or driven by roles; but generally it's still all service to others in some way, or behavior that is self-expressive but STILL ends up serving/helping others even if it's not true altruism.)

    Maybe there are simply parts of the Enneagram theory that you personally don't identify with. I'm not sure myself how nine separately constructed archetypes could realistically cover the entire spectrum of human beings. (Function theory at least theoretically does, by separating functions into binary pairs that technically cover all ground even if realistically the pairs/distinctions themselves might not be set up correctly... but the enneagram easily leaves some undefined territory.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Umm.... Fe and Fi are irrelevant in the Enneagram. You're drawing a distinction and then reacting against it that does not exist, by trying to equate Two's completely with ISFJs and Eights completely with ExTJs.
    More like disliking the entire E2 description and consideration as a healthy move for an e8 and using the MBTI crutch to explain why. There's a distinct difference between this and setting up a straw man to knock down.

    (Aside from that, looking at what you bolded in my post, are you saying that Fi people are not aware of other people's feelings and do not want to give to them or be in service to them? I don't think that would be accurate. I'm painting with a general brush as well. Maybe your warmth/personal service is more internalized or focused on individuals rather than on groups or driven by roles; but generally it's still all service to others in some way, or behavior that is self-expressive but STILL ends up serving/helping others.)
    I have to giggle a little since the bolded statement is conclusive, where my return comments will be open-ended.

    There's no reason why self-interest and public interest can't play nice together, marching to the same drummer, as long as the individual 8 is authentic to values and self, instead of being pushed around externally.

    Maybe there are simply parts of the Enneagram theory that you personally don't identify with. I'm not sure myself how nine separately constructed archetypes could realistically cover the entire spectrum of human beings. (Function theory at least theoretically does, by separating functions into binary pairs that technically cover all ground even if realistically the pairs/distinctions themselves might not be set up correctly... but the enneagram easily leaves some undefined territory.)
    The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives. Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    More like disliking the entire E2 description and consideration as a healthy move for an e8 and using the MBTI crutch to explain why. There's a distinct difference between this and setting up a straw man to knock down.
    That's one issue with the Enneagram. The Directions of Integration/Disintegration (IMO) were attempts to let the picture itself dictate the typology theory, as well as tie nine non-comprehensive types together in some way. Why does Eight go to Two rather than to One or Three? Because Enneagram theory says it does... lol.

    I have to giggle a little since the bolded statement is conclusive, where my return comments will be open-ended.
    We're both participating in the Function Exchange program.

    Others who are interested can sign up after this particular performance has concluded. Thank you.

    There's no reason why self-interest and public interest can't play nice together, marching to the same drummer, as long as the individual 8 is authentic to values and self, instead of being pushed around externally.
    Which is all true. I'm simply saying there is probably not as sharp a distinction with relational values as Fi/Fe can make out to be.

    The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives.
    Lol -- that's probably the only part I find interesting in the Enneagram, since it's kind of unique and actually tries to proceed rationally even if various assumptions might be faulty. Otherwise it's just astrological-style mumbo-jumbo, with these arbitrary nine types someone threw together.

    Riso and Hudson also naturally brought out that aspect of Enneagram due to their heavily Catholic background. Of course they are going to emphasize a strong component of spiritual growth.

    Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!
    Instinctual stackings are interesting, I think, as well -- what's funny is that they seem more like an "expansion set" or a graft unto the Enneagram, rather than part of the natural Enneagram itself.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Do these two descriptions of the healthiest level of 8's irritate the fuck out of you, like they do me?
    I wish there was more input from 8s here. What's interesting to me is that the description talks about how 8s can be very giving, but it has to be their own idea, otherwise they'll resist it with mind and body. In other words, Enneagram almost predicts that 8s will violently resist the higher levels of the Enneagram unless it's their own idea.

    First, I think there needs to be a distinction when it comes to integration to 2. There are 2 levels - security and integration. Security is low level... it's taking on the traits of a 2 in an undeveloped, almost default fashion. Taking on traits of the 2 at this level is not a pathway to growth, but a pathway that stifles growth. Don't confuse this with integration.

    At the level of integration, it's not about becoming a 2, but learning how certain traits of the 2 can become part of the 8. They are not blindly subsumed, but used to flesh out the natural strengths of the 8 in order to create balance and dimension to their personalities. They are integrated.

    Here's what I'm wondering. 8s value independence through skilled use of personal effort. 8s are self reliant, and respect other people who are the same. Do 8s feel that to be level 1, they have to give that up? Do 8s believe that level 1 directly contradicts what an 8 is supposed to be about?

    Because that's not how I'm reading the Enneagram description at all, but perhaps I'm the one misreading it.

  10. #20
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    The emotional health levels of enneagram theory are the parts that gives me intellectual and emotional hives. Also, most positive and negative descriptions are too extreme. The instinctual stackings, I find fantastic. Very apt!
    I like those emotional health levels. You can take it with a grain of salt - a general framework in a sense from really unhealthy to really healthy.

    What I'd like to know is why the Level 1 language bothers you so much. I've tried to glean it from your postings here but haven't really been able to discern an answer to that question.

    "Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness."

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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