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  1. #101
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Interesting point. I was curious about what you said here and so looked it up.

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp

    If there is wisdom that is common amongst the world's religions, that might mean something.
    As an agnostic atheist, I'd rather rely on science. Too much of the worst attrocities enacted by human beings were done with the blessings of whatever governing body resided within the specific organised religion. And organised religion is all about herding the sheep.

  2. #102
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    As an agnostic atheist, I'd rather rely on science. Too much of the worst attrocities enacted by human beings were done with the blessings of whatever governing body resided within the specific organised religion. And organised religion is all about herding the sheep.
    I understand what you you are saying but regardless as to whether or not someone believes in a particular religion, the truths and values that appear to be common among them would be something worth considering. That is, they would have stood the test of time.

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  3. #103
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I understand what you you are saying but regardless as to whether or not someone believes in a particular religion, the truths and values that appear to be common among them would be something worth considering. That is, they would have stood the test of time.
    Surprisingly, I have read and understood everyone's comments in this thread but question the process of how they've arrived at their values.

    One thing's for certain. I won't embrace any 'wisdom' unless it stands up to the test of logical analysis by each individual, as it relates to self and understanding that there isn't only one perspective of anything. You might be surprised at what values I actually agree with and how many I have, but they are mine to live with, not something to force onto anyone else or at best, how I can control my natural inclinations to extrovert those values.

  4. #104
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    This song came to mind about loss of belief, religion inclusive. Love this song.

    Losing My Religion
    - REM

    Life is bigger
    It's bigger than you
    And you are not me
    The lengths that I will go to
    The distance in your eyes
    Oh no I've said too much
    I set it up

    That's me in the corner
    That's me in the spotlight
    Losing my religion
    Trying to keep up with you
    And I don't know if I can do it
    Oh no I've said too much
    I haven't said enough
    I thought that I heard you laughing
    I thought that I heard you sing
    I think I thought I saw you try

    Every whisper
    Of every waking hour I'm
    Choosing my confessions
    Trying to keep an eye on you
    Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
    Oh no I've said too much
    I set it up

    Consider this
    The hint of the century
    Consider this
    The slip that brought me
    To my knees failed
    What if all these fantasies
    Come flailing around
    Now I've said too much
    I thought that I heard you laughing
    I thought that I heard you sing
    I think I thought I saw you try

    But that was just a dream
    That was just a dream

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwUZVkKfE70"] [/YOUTUBE]

  5. #105
    ThatGirl
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    To the OP, as an 8 I find it annoying that all the best things we can become are what is best for other people

  6. #106
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Surprisingly, I have read and understood everyone's comments in this thread but question the process of how they've arrived at their values.
    Nothing wrong with that. Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    One thing's for certain. I won't embrace any 'wisdom' unless it stands up to the test of logical analysis by each individual, as it relates to self and understanding that there isn't only one perspective of anything. You might be surprised at what values I actually agree with and how many I have, but they are mine to live with, not something to force onto anyone else or at best, how I can control my natural inclinations to extrovert those values.
    Of course there isn't one perspective on anything and people are all different. However, the implication of some of what you're saying is that the logical analysis of one individual is superior to the collective wisdom of humanity. I'm struggling with words to describe how I feel about this but isn't that a bit arrogant?

    The concern about thrusting one's values on others is understandable.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This is it! This is why enneagram offends me so much. It's like a gigantic Fe-based framework of someone's interpretation of a how each personality type should fit, in order to create their definition of a functional society.

    So thanks everyone for your input, no matter what it was. Now I can happily reject the entire theory.
    LOL, that's the spirit!

    While I think the enneagram has some useful ideas, there are are some serious blind spots and illogical aspects to it that I've never been able to fully embrace. I suspect it doesn't fully, and never will, fit you.

  8. #108
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Of course there isn't one perspective on anything and people are all different. However, the implication of some of what you're saying is that the logical analysis of one individual is superior to the collective wisdom of humanity. I'm struggling with words to describe how I feel about this but isn't that a bit arrogant?
    There are two reasons why individuals should always question collective wisdom.

    One is centered around the word individual. Are you and I identical? If not, are all the individuals who made up the collective wisdom identical to you and I? If not, why would anyone rely on others who aren't the same, to define how they should live their lives beyond what's punishable within social contracts like law? And even then, not all laws are fair to or right for every individual since there are no universal laws governing every person on this earth.

    The second reason would be the same reason why people shouldn't participate in lynch mobs unless they honestly understand the issues and agree with the form of justice that's being enacted on the individual being lynched. In other words, prosecution or persecution.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    LOL, that's the spirit!

    While I think the enneagram has some useful ideas, there are are some serious blind spots and illogical aspects to it that I've never been able to fully embrace. I suspect it doesn't fully, and never will, fit you.
    Thanks. And you're right. It's not for me.

  9. #109
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Nowhere have I said that forgiveness wasn't worthwhile. But rote anything is pretty meaningless.

    This is different from wanting to be a source of inspiration and deliberately working towards this goal.

    This is once again different than working towards being heroic or deliberately martyring oneself to attain heroic status.
    There were qualifiers in the wording that gave me the impression that the Level 1 description was suggesting a capacity to be heroic, forgiving, etc, rather than aiming to be those things directly.

    Since we each have stances and are debating the issues, each presenter must prove their stance, much like my proof to you about E2s and Fe.
    Yeah, but I never claimed the heroism was based on altruism. Rather, not all heroes seeking the status was an example of how it wasn't necessarily narcissistic.

    While it may appear to be an act of heroism, it wasn't a manufactured act. It's biological imperative that drives mothers to take bullets or burns for their children. Species continuity.
    It wasn't her children.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I had taken it seriously, but I really didn't pay attention to WHO was posting. Had I, instead of multi-quoting, I probably wouldn't have at all. My apologies


    Because of that I am imposing multiple hugs on you since I know just how much kyuuei luuuuuuuuvs cuddling.

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