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  1. #1
    Member annnie's Avatar
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    Default Type 4 (4w3.. probably) and ENTP

    Hello all

    I'm going through yet another round of 'developing self understanding' (must be something about getting a year older.... ) and hoping some Enneagram insight as well as the MBTI can help out! Any thoughts appreciated...

    Very much sure of my ENTP "diagnosis", though I used to come out as INTP on most of the tests (but eventually realised this wasn't correct - I don't think I've 'changed' type as such - but perhaps it used to be less noticeable). Not at all sure of Enneagram type! I've been through most of them -- 5w6 (this was about the time I used to come out as INTP), 6 briefly, 3w4. Pretty much ruled out 1, 2, 9 as a possibility.

    Most recently have identified as 4 (specifically 4w3) though in general I seem to recall reading that in general ENTPs "only" come out as 3 or 7 generally (though have come across a website detailing ENTP/ENFP with 3w4 and 4w3 and an 'Inventive' personality style - though website doesn't seem to have been recently updated).

    I gather this is quite an unusual pairing so wondering if this is "possible" if unusual or if I should re-consider again!

    Here's some of the weird things that make me think of 4, though I don't know if they can be correlated to any particular type really.

    - (I'm quite ashamed of this....) I have been known to "make up" things to get people to notice me, specifically finding difficulties to make me 'different' and get people talking about it. Not lies that will harm anyone else, but for example: "oh I can't do that cos I have this clause in this contract" sometimes to my detriment. For instance I put off applying for a mobile phone contract (monthly payment type of thing) for over 2 years as I was afraid I wouldn't be accepted on the credit check! But I actually have good credit (verified by the data) and really just wanted to make out to people that "I'm so unfortunate, woe is me, the evil phone company won't give me a contract because of all this stuff [which doesn't actually exist]," (I know that sounds really bad but don't know why I do it or how to stop it!)

    - I paradoxically want people to notice how 'different' and 'special' I am but make out that I want to be admired by people in conventional ways e.g. by academic achievement. It's always on a sort of "meta" level though as in... (quite hard to explain) not just a straightforward "I want to be admired" (or whatever) but more "I want to be seen as the sort of person that's driven by wanting to be admired" or on increased levels to that etc. (Not sure if that makes sense. it does in my head!)

    - Done quite a few things academically (degrees etc) that I didn't really want to do but it's almost as if it's an "excuse" to be different and to be noticed by people (more than to be 'admired' as such), I'm coming to the end of some studies now and really feel like being a perpetual student (I also work full time before anyone concludes I'm a serial 'dosser'!) is my "identity" and is convenient to be able to say "Oh i'm the only person that can't do XYZ, cos I have this assignment due..." (This academic stuff is partly what made me think 3w4 originally but don't think I had identified the motivation correctly)

    - I went to give blood for the first time as I was curious as to what my blood group was (maybe not the best motive! ) and in the time between giving the blood and getting the "result" (you get notified of your blood group on the first donation here in the UK) I was terrified - in a really fundamental way - that they'd find something odd... I've never worried about 'HIV' etc (as no reason to think I would have it) but more that they would look at the blood sample and find out I had a blood group that had never before been found in medicine..... I worry about this with any diagnostic tests etc. I've been supposed to go back to the doctor for 2 years and haven't been as I'm afraid she will find something much more fundamental (not just 'run of the mill' anxiety which is what she saw me for) wrong...

    - I'm concerned to influence my environment and appearance etc to the extent that it reflects the 'real' me (whoever that is...), I don't have great planned out ambitions or anything but if I picture the 'future' me with infinite resources etc it's with a house and everything that is really unique and says something about ME...

    - Come off as quite arrogant and snobby to most people (especially those that doesn't know me very well) but in fact I am quite jealous of other people for finding things "easy" and being seen as a distinct person without having to go through all the 'trials and tribulations' (most of which are self imposed) that I have...

    - (This is the one that gets me...) I worked in an office and needed a cup for coffee etc to keep on my desk. I spent ages and went to loads of different shops looking for the 'perfect' cup that would somehow encapsulate and represent me to others (Not for its functionality etc but purely for how it represented me)...

    Previously I've thought of 4 as quite an 'introverted' type in general (could be wrong though) so am not sure if 4w3 is the correct one, some of the descriptions don't really seem to fit, but then some narratives written by actual people who have this type resonate more.

    In a nutshell: Is 4w3 with ENTP possible or is it more likely that I have the type wrong again?

  2. #2
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    I wouldn't rule it out, but do you have more of a desire to achieve things with your own unique flair and be given special recognition for it (i.e. awards, praise), or do you have more of a desire to find your place in the world and have others accept you for being unique... and are your emotions permeated by wistful longing?
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    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  3. #3
    Member annnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    I wouldn't rule it out, but do you have more of a desire to achieve things with your own unique flair and be given special recognition for it (i.e. awards, praise), or do you have more of a desire to find your place in the world and have others accept you for being unique... and are your emotions permeated by wistful longing?
    I had to think about this for a little while but "to find my place in the world" I think.... being validated by recognition from others perhaps... but usually for something I am 'unique' in (whether it's a tangible achievement, something I've written or programmed, a personal 'style' or whatever)

    Quite often I am thinking in the past or future, not the present. E.g. being quite nostalgic about things (for the last year or so I've had this urge to revisit places and "states of mind" of a few years ago - some of which I've carried out - though maybe it's something to do with coming up to 30!), or "what things will be like when I've finished this degree" or "when I have the big house" etc.

    Actually although I come off as wanting to conform to what is "conventionally" an achievement (degrees etc), my immediate reaction is to be quite jealous if someone else "muscles in" on something that's 'my' thing that people knew me for!

  4. #4
    Member annnie's Avatar
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    Ooops double post, not sure how that happened!
    Last edited by annnie; 12-21-2010 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Trouble at t'internets

  5. #5
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    I have another question for you that will discern whether you're a 3w4 or 4w3....

    If you are under stress at work, do you find that emotional stress clouds your ability to do work and you have to step back for a couple seconds until you can think straight, or do you find the stress motivating for you to do more work and achieve higher?

    Type 4's under stress get emotionally overwhelmed and need some time alone to recharge and go through the emotions and let them pass. Type 3's, on the other hand, can get past the emotional stuff and become workaholics until the job is done. Even if a type 4 pushes themselves to get through a job, when something is eating at them, it is reflected in their performance. They might not be able to focus as well on a task or they may seem much more withdrawn than usual.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  6. #6
    Member annnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    I have another question for you that will discern whether you're a 3w4 or 4w3....

    If you are under stress at work, do you find that emotional stress clouds your ability to do work and you have to step back for a couple seconds until you can think straight, or do you find the stress motivating for you to do more work and achieve higher?

    Type 4's under stress get emotionally overwhelmed and need some time alone to recharge and go through the emotions and let them pass. Type 3's, on the other hand, can get past the emotional stuff and become workaholics until the job is done. Even if a type 4 pushes themselves to get through a job, when something is eating at them, it is reflected in their performance. They might not be able to focus as well on a task or they may seem much more withdrawn than usual.
    Thank you for the responses CuriousFeeling, appreciated!

    Stress at work, hmm. Well, I used to be in this situation semi-regularly (without going into a load of work related detail - we worked to regular 'cycles' and at the end of each cycle we would invariably have a "crisis" time, too much to get through, too little time - to the point that if anything went wrong we wouldn't have made it, and it was 'my' responsibility to make sure it didn't go wrong, as "failure wasn't an option" (not my words!) as I was the only person that could "save" the situation!) ... I've since left that job (and employer).

    When I discussed this with people, they said what I had to do was allow the situation to fail so that managers etc would finally take notice and have to do something, but I couldn't bring myself to do it! On the surface of it, because "so much depends on it", but in reality if I'm honest because my ego and sense of 'self' was so dependent on being the only person that could resolve the crisis etc, people have to rely on me to do it, cos I'm the only one that can. To the point of putting my health at risk...

    At first I used to find it quite motivating, before things went really crazy, I would always look forward to the bit where it was done and picture me (and my team) being spoken positively about at meetings etc like "This team did all these hours, they sacrificed this personal time" etc. Later though as it got more and more mad it started to affect me 'emotionally' more to the point that I would often wake up crying in the night (!) terrified I'd forgotten something or that we wouldn't get everything done, would feel ill in the mornings, very irritable with people in the office (whom I would think "Well, they weren't up late last night, AND missed dinner AND were in early this morning AND did xyz... I'm the only person who did ALL of these things... :steam:!) I would also go very quiet on people and sort of "hunker down" and get on with the job (I usually try to take quite a light hearted approach and have a laugh whilst being serious, when not under stress that is!!) Yes, it probably did affect performance to the point that things seemed more difficult than they should have been, trivial things I knew perfectly well how to do and just couldn't face (which I could do easily in a couple of minutes in a more normal state of mind!)

    I would also over react and get steamed up about 'trivial' things and interpret things people said the wrong way etc (I'm normally quite easy going and laugh things off and try to think the best of people - "He probably didn't mean it to come out like that" etc) ... I remember one time during one of these periods coming home and something trivial like a neighbours' cat kept coming up to me and I just freaked out and was like "for gods sake can you PLEASE leave me alone!!!" etc, sounds quite mad now I say it 'out loud'

    Erm I'm rambling.... In a nutshell I don't think it was the stress/pressure as such that was 'motivating' to do more, mostly the sense of ego validation that "I am the only one that can" etc. It's a trap though! It's quite easy to manipulate people like me, all you need to say is something like "I don't think it's possible" or "no one knows how to do this, can you find a way to do it" !!

  7. #7
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Over-reacting seems more like a type 4 trait. If you were a type 3, you'd do everything within your power to make sure that the failure not only didn't happen, but wasn't exposed to everyone else.

    Here's two links showing the different levels of 3 and 4 behavior:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typethree.asp

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typefour.asp

    Basically... type 4's isolate and withdraw in moments of stress, and type 3's want to make themselves look better in front of others.

    Check those links out and let me know which one rings closer to home.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  8. #8
    Member annnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    Over-reacting seems more like a type 4 trait. If you were a type 3, you'd do everything within your power to make sure that the failure not only didn't happen, but wasn't exposed to everyone else.

    Here's two links showing the different levels of 3 and 4 behavior:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typethree.asp

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typefour.asp

    Basically... type 4's isolate and withdraw in moments of stress, and type 3's want to make themselves look better in front of others.

    Check those links out and let me know which one rings closer to home.
    A bit of both but more so the 4 I think - especially the "unhealthy" descriptions - all a bit strange really as I had always (based on not much knowledge admittedly) thought of the 4s as being feelers and introverts in general (of which I am neither, but definitely have a 'weak' E and T compared to the NP, though they are definitely there).

    From the 4 description specifically these bits...
    - "disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living" - I look down on people a lot of the time because they've just done 'normal' things like watch X Factor! Sometimes I voice these opinions and invariably get in trouble (I've finally learnt to control the brain to mouth filter though!)
    - "Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty" - I do this in quite an Extraverted way, with surroundings and so on, rather than things I've created 'internally' like writing and art (I haven't got the attention span for those!)
    - "maintain their identity by seeing themselves as fundamentally different from others", "feel that they lack a clear and stable identity" - I struggle to know 'who I am' really except by contrast with others - I'm *not* like this person, etc.
    - "feel that they are unlike other human beings" yes, to the point that I was starting to think I could have a whole different blood group... irrationally, admittedly
    - "feel they are missing something in themselves, although they may have difficulty identifying exactly what" I don't know what I want or what's "missing" really except in the abstract
    - "do not really want to be alone" I get lonely within 2 seconds a few minutes...
    - "To acknowledge their good qualities would be to lose their sense of identity (as a suffering victim) and to be without a relatively consistent personal identity (their Basic Fear)"

    From the 3 description...
    - "diplomatic and poised, but can also be overly concerned with their image and what others think of them"
    - "No matter how success is defined, Threes will try to become somebody noteworthy in their family and their community. They will not be a “nobody.” " Not in my family and 'community' (whatever that is) specifically, but to "people" in general - society.
    - "learn to perform in ways that will garner them praise and positive attention" (Though if positive attention isn't forthcoming, negative attention is better than none... Blimey I sound like a right drama queen!!)
    - "want success because they are afraid of disappearing into a chasm of emptiness and worthlessness" I always look around for something to 'achieve' next and that's who I will be... (I don't normally doubt that I'll be able to achieve it - mostly since on some level I have a good sense of what I'm likely to be successful at!)
    - "become so alienated from themselves that they no longer know what they truly want, or what their real feelings or interests are"

    Interestingly (?) I saw that the 'disintegration' type of 4 was 2 (not too sure how the levels of health relate to integration and disintegration though) which seems to have a lot of the 'ISFJ' characteristics (the 'shadow' type of ENTP... which I spent quite a bit of time in the inferior functions in the past, not so much now). But in quite a sinister way, like the difference between "Everyone needs me and I am useful" vs "Everyone is useless and can't do anything without me saving them".

  9. #9
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    From your choices, you have more type 4 traits, but some overlap with type 3 traits, so it is likely that you are a 4w3.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




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