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[Type 4] INTP Fours? (and other oddities...)

lunalum

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sp/so
I still wonder if there are any INTP 4s around who are pretty sure about the T preference.

I show the most consistent pattern of being INTP. I do seem to have pretty high Fi, but Ti always clearly wins.

If I had to choose, I would say that I am 5w4, but I fear that I am not giving the 4 enough attention simply because of my thinking preference.

Upon closer inspection, I agree on the 5 and 4 profiles just about evenly, and this short description just about pins me down:

"Type 4 World View: Something's missing. Others have it. I'm different from them because I don't.
Basic Desire: to understand self
Basic Fear: of being defective"

I am also hopelessly fascinated with the individual, the one that breaks the pattern, the strange and different, etc. (and who else would start such a thread...)

I am the alien watching down on earth, analyzing its ways...

But there are some inconsistencies:

Fours supposedly look deep into some sort of "darkness within." I see no dark, just weaknesses to endlessly improve upon.

Also about those weaknesses, I do not let them hide my strengths. I still enjoy my strengths well. Are fours not allowed to see themselves as awesome? ;)

Fours are also not supposed to rationalize their states, but I seem to do little more than rationalize them. Does the fact that an INTP rationalizes the bits out of everything mean they cannot be a four?


Is INTP 4 a contradiction in terms? Are there any combinations of types and enneagram that are truly contradictions? I wish to investigate the possible contradictions in these oddities.
 

Chloe

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There are many weird combinations, like ENFP 1 for example...

I have a friend who is INTP and 4. He is very NT, but he wants to be special and unique like 4s do, he is also often a drama queen, but for example I am NF and we viewt hings much differently, he considers most NF things unimportant and naive. He wants to be considered competent and intelligent, which is secondary to most NFs, who care more about are they good people and stuff like that. While watching movie about G.Klimt I got impression he could have been INTP 4 too
 

SecondBest

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I think the whole issue with the apparent contradiction in either INTPs being a 4 and INFPs being a 5 can most likely be traced back to whatever balance that might exist in each individual's F/T slot - if we're sticking with MBTI terms. Certainly there is some sort of base personality that exists, but other cognitive functions can develop over time through certain life experiences or challenges that exercise a contradictory function.

So basically what I'm trying to say is this: I wouldn't worry too much about apparent contradictions in either functions or comparing different personality type systems, because it basically means to me that you've done things in your life you weren't comfortable with but learned to do well anyway.

I was talking about this with a group of people in ventrilo and it seems to me that people get too caught up in their personality type when really, learning about your dominant or prevalent cognitive functions is much more helpful in first understanding yourself and from there being better able to derive your MBTI type.

Samvega gave me a link to this test that I think does a pretty damn good job of assessing your cognitive process profile. I'm sure other threads have posted it, but I'll post it here again.

Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes
 

Amargith

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I don'tw anna cause a shit storm again but...

Ti-doms have Fi in the devil position. Apparently that means that you can be tempted into using it but you have trouble using it in a balanced way, you tend to go overboard in it, when you do engage in it.

For me, for instance, it's Se. I *love* good food, physical touches, the feeling of soft fabric on my skin, dancing, sex..etc
However, I also suck at finding things and focusing on what's in front of me. So I do have a relative good use of it in some places....and rather bad one in others. Most importantly...I abuse it when I'm stressed. I'm likely to go shopping like mad, engage in pure physical stimulation in order to forget my responsibilities and take away my anxiety etc....

Perhaps your use of Fi is somewhat the same, which then ties into the 4 enneagram?
 

lunalum

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Thanks everyone who responded so far..

There are many weird combinations, like ENFP 1 for example...
I have a friend who is INTP and 4. He is very NT, but he wants to be special and unique like 4s do, he is also often a drama queen, but for example I am NF and we view things much differently, he considers most NF things unimportant and naive. He wants to be considered competent and intelligent, which is secondary to most NFs, who care more about are they good people and stuff like that.

Interesting, it would be cool to hear more about being ENFP 1.
LOL @ the drama queen INTP 4. That's an even more unusual combination there.
Yes, it is key to know that my desire to be competent pretty much takes over everything else.

I think the whole issue with the apparent contradiction in either INTPs being a 4 and INFPs being a 5 can most likely be traced back to whatever balance that might exist in each individual's F/T slot - if we're sticking with MBTI terms...

So basically what I'm trying to say is this: I wouldn't worry too much about apparent contradictions in either functions or comparing different personality type systems, because it basically means to me that you've done things in your life you weren't comfortable with but learned to do well anyway.

...learning about your dominant or prevalent cognitive functions is much more helpful in first understanding yourself and from there being better able to derive your MBTI type.

Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes

In sticking to MBTI terms, there actually isn't really a great balance in T and F. I tend to test about 65/35, respectively. Though maybe I don't understand what is meant by 'balance.'

It is interesting that you say it might be due to learning things that weren't comfortable. I challenge myself with things that I am not good at everyday, but I'd need to see what specifically is going on there.

Understanding cognitive processes is very important, but as I said in the OP, I already know that I'm a Ti-dominant, as to make this little about whether I'm a real INTP or not and more about the reality of uncommon type/enneagram combos.
Here's my complete profile for reference:
introverted Thinking (Ti) --->(46.4)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne)---> (39.2)
introverted Feeling (Fi)--->(35.9)
extraverted Thinking (Te)--->(33.3)
introverted Intuiting (Ni)--->(28.1)
introverted Sensing (Si)---> (22.8)
extraverted Sensing (Se)---> (20.1)
extraverted Feeling (Fe)--->(14.6)

Ti-doms have Fi in the devil position. Apparently that means that you can be tempted into using it but you have trouble using it in a balanced way, you tend to go overboard in it, when you do engage in it.
For me, for instance, it's Se. I *love* good food, physical touches, the feeling of soft fabric on my skin, dancing, sex..etc
However, I also suck at finding things and focusing on what's in front of me. So I do have a relative good use of it in some places....and rather bad one in others. Most importantly...I abuse it when I'm stressed. I'm likely to go shopping like mad, engage in pure physical stimulation in order to forget my responsibilities and take away my anxiety etc....
Perhaps your use of Fi is somewhat the same, which then ties into the 4 enneagram?

I'm a little skeptical about those process positions, but suppose that could make sense. But according to your description, I have a lot of my processes in that position ;)
I'm still not so sure how that would play into the enneagram. Would that mean that I am a real four, or just a five with a strong evil four wing that takes over sometimes...
 

Chloe

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i have a feeling that NTP 4s have often that .... decadent vibe... like somewhat sexually provocative and expressive, like passionate but detached sex animals.
at least i spoted it in few NTP 4s.

unlike NF 4s who cant consider sex only a play, often.
 

Lady_X

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i have a feeling that NTP 4s have often that .... decadent vibe... like somewhat sexually provocative and expressive, like passionate but detached sex animals.
at least i spoted it in few NTP 4s.

unlike NF 4s who cant consider sex only a play, often.
what does that mean?
 

Chloe

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what does that mean?

that some ntp 4s i know seem very passionate about sex but dont consider it necessary "making love", ... i was mostly having klimt in mind, he was sleeping with everybody...

it's just observation based on few ntp 4s, i know it doesnt apply to majority.

but passion + detachment in them is very intriguing.
 

Lady_X

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so...you're saying an nt 4 can be passionate about sex but it doesn't necessarily mean anything...unlike the nf 4's?
 

Fan.of.Devin

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I still wonder if there are any INTP 4s around who are pretty sure about the T preference.
Positive!

As I gather, the basic desire of a 5 is to be competent/useful, and the basic desire of a 4 is to be unique/significant...
The former can be viewed as a subset of the latter, or the other way around.
 

annnie

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4w3
I am an ENTP and since coming across the Enneagram quite a few years ago have been 'all over the place' with which E-type I thought I was - 3, 5, 6 with most of the wings. Recently came to think/know I am a 4.

Initially came up with 5w6 on the test, strangely (?) this coincided with when I used to think I was INTP :peepwall: Very 'abstract' and 'theoretical', interested in arcane stuff like optimising Linux to run on a badger, studying masters degree for the sake of the knowledge in itself, etc.

Moved onto 3w4, identified that feeling I should "push on" with things like the degree, being an expert on the things I was good at, like at work etc, wanting to impress people, feeling like I had no sense of 'self' other than what I project to other people (Still don't, come to that!) Doing insane numbers of hours at work because "I am the only one who can do this", etc (though I'm not sure this is a 3 thing, actually)

Went through a bit of a strange period in life (long story short: being contradictory, testing people, push and pull, feeling like I couldn't do things [such as a particular sport, liking a particular band, etc..] because someone "already was doing that" and I didn't want to be seen as copying them, very risk averse though feeling that I "should" be rather than that I really was, hence a constant source of conflict, etc), was identified by others when I posted one of those "type me!" on a different forum as a 6 although I hadn't really considered that type myself. Reading the description it seemed to make sense and could fit, though that could be just the zodiac principle at work.

Got disillusioned with the Enneagram and didn't come back to it for a while.

Recently, and I'm not sure why but think it may have been due to joining this forum actually, as it asks for MB and E type in the user profile - came back to it and started thinking again about what type I might be.

As it's all about motivation - in some sense - when I think with the perspective of 'adulthood' (I am nearly 30!) and a lot more life experience with people etc, that all of the above is really driven by the feeling to be 'unique' and 'special' :yay: rather than for the more specific reasons (pursuit of knowledge, seeking of admiration, etc) for the other types...

It can be strange and contradictory, e.g. naturally I can be a bit of a risk taker, but continually feel 'forced' to be extremely risk averse (e.g. being unable to spend any money at all other than on basic things despite being lucky enough to have a good job - and I know it is luck in this economy) and to differentiate myself from others: "I'm the only one that can't take annual leave, as the company will fall apart without me" (because i'm 'unique' in being competent - not true), "I have to keep studying and continue to a masters degree so that other people won't think I'm a lazy slacker but I'm the only person others think of like this - most people can stop" (also not true), "I can't take up badminton because so-and-so is already doing it" (maybe true but not if just for the reaction from people)

I don't know how to describe it other than "Believing things I don't really believe" - Rationally and at the time I know the belief is silly and ridiculous!

Anyway, coming back to the Enneagram type I would now identify myself as a 4, probably 4w3. Seems a bit strange as I have always associated 4 with the 'Feeling' functions (yeah I know they are not directly correlated..) though of course we all have a 'Feeling' function!

Personally though I feel like I have never really 'got on' with the Enneagram as much as the MBTI, it doesn't seem to stand up objectively as a whole system that fits together *because* of its structure, rather than just being a structure that someone came up with! For instance 9 seems a "non-obvious" number of types, for a start. :shrug:
 
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