[Type 9] Type 9 and Identity

[wolfy]

I was brainstorming some more about the indecisiveness and obscurity about what is said of type 9s. This quote from the book/movie "Girl Interrupted" by Susanna Kaysen came to mind:


Susanna Kaysen: I'm ambivalent. In fact that's my new favorite word.
Dr. Sonia Wick: Do you know what that means, ambivalence?
Susanna Kaysen: I don't care.
Dr. Sonia Wick: If it's your favorite word, I would've thought you would...
Susanna Kaysen: It *means* I don't care. That's what it means.
Dr. Sonia Wick: On the contrary, Susanna. Ambivalence suggests strong feelings... in opposition. The prefix, as in "ambidextrous," means "both." The rest of it, in Latin, means "vigor." The word suggests that you are torn... between two opposing courses of action.
Susanna Kaysen: Will I stay or will I go?
Dr. Sonia Wick: Am I sane... or, am I crazy?
Susanna Kaysen: Those aren't courses of action.
Dr. Sonia Wick: They can be, dear - for some.
Susanna Kaysen: Well, then - it's the wrong word.
Dr. Sonia Wick: No. I think it's perfect.


I was also thinking about what it means to have an identity, a personality...a question wolfy posed earlier. What qualities make those things up?
I started off by looking at the dictionary.com definition for both words and then by searching wikipedia for any other "clear" insight on what these may consist of:


i·den·ti·ty
   /aɪˈdɛntɪti, ɪˈdɛn-/ Show Spelled[ahy-den-ti-tee, ih-den-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
...
2.the condition of being oneself or itself, and not another: He doubted his own identity.
...
5.the sense of self, providing sameness and continuity in personality over time and sometimes disturbed in mental illnesses, as schizophrenia.



Medical Dictionary
iden·ti·ty definition
Pronunciation: /ī-ˈden(t)-ət-ē, ə-ˈ/
Function: n
pl -ties ; 1 : the distinguishing character or personality of an individual
2 : the relation established by psychological identification


per·son·al·i·ty
   /ˌpɜrsəˈnælɪti/ Show Spelled[pur-suh-nal-i-tee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
...
Psychology .
a.the sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual.
b.the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual.
4.the quality of being a person; existence as a self-conscious human being; personal identity.
5.the essential character of a person.


Medical Dictionary
per·son·al·i·ty definition
Pronunciation: /ˌpərs- ə n-ˈal-ət-ē, ˌpər-ˈsnal-/
Function: n
pl -ties ; 1 : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual especially in relationships with others
2 a : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional tendencies
b : the organization of the individual's distinguishing character traits, attitudes, or habits


I think this sums up what a personality really is best "the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual especially in relationships with others." It is a combination of many characteristics. I think it would be impossible for people to be completely unique in all the characteristics they own, people would not be able to relate to one another in this way. Rather, what makes us unique is the actual combination of these characteristics that we have in comparison to one another, that's what makes one stand out.

When comparing these definitions to the type 9 enneagram description, why can't we just say that one possible or prime characteristic of this type, is said to be one of ambivalence, empathy, middle of the road due to having a broad spectrum of understanding of others and/or flexible likes and dislikes, and relatability. Therefore many preferences, as opposed to none and/or being unsure of one's preferences.

I think you make some excellent points. I like your movie quote. I was reading how for nines it is a good idea to form some kind of identity. A definition of their personality even though there is an innate understanding there is no such thing in reality.

 

[Curator]

what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves—a strong sense of their own identity.

Ironically, therefore, the only type the Nine is not like is the Nine itself. Being a separate self, an individual who must assert herself against others, is terrifying to Nines. They would rather melt into someone else or quietly follow their idyllic daydreams.
Is this true for you?

I have to say most of that was Very true for me, I had to even be careful who I was friends with, as I would seem to take on parts of their personality, I also day dreamed a LOT...

Over about the last year though I have finally started to develop a strong sense of my own identity, its led to a lot of positive growth and a lot more happiness for me...

I used to actually think the Enneagram was total crap when I was younger, I took it, tested as a 6 (this was shortly after my girlfriend had died) and was like "that sounds verry little like me!" but then upon taking it again recently, then reading some more complete info, and talking with a few friends, it was obvious I am a 9 as it seems to fit me to a T, and the fact I previously tested as a 6 (on a much crappier/shorter quiz) during a very difficult time in my life, seems to support that...

Reading about the levels, it was kind of mind blowing, how specifically they fit different stages in my life... and really inspiring to see how far I have fallen in the past, yet how Ive bounced back from that, to get where I am now, and it almost feels like reading about all of it and learning more, has helped me to even further solidify my new found feeling of identity.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

DJAch..choo..I can definately relate. I score highest in 4 but 9 is second and I can see a lot of myself in 9. They both seem to have identity issues. I wonder if you score or can relate strongly to type 4 as well?

Ditto that. I score higher on 4, but often wonder if I'm actually a 9, as I score second highest on that and find it fitting in a lot of ways.

I can see some merging with the environment as far as taking ideas and stuff to do from it. From people and the environment. Things become apparent from the situation and I make them my own. Like imagine an idea is a ball and you see the ball and pick it up and run with it. That is what I mean. But merging with another person's identity isn't something I relate to at all.

This is kind of unrelated but it reminded me of this old story. I was sitting at my Grandad's place and he had on some Doobie Brothers. I was maybe fifteen, he said "do you like this song?" I was going through this thing where I'd try and read what people wanted and give it to them so I tried to read his face to see and said "Yeah". He said "I don't" and switched it off. I never tried to read a person again. I loved that lesson, my wife is sick of that story!

The first part of this sort of just sounds like Se or Ne. I often wish there was more study with the mbti and enneagram together to get a better understanding.

As far as the second part of this goes... how do you personally feel when someone comes at you in the same way? It reminded me of a story of my own... I was in middle school and my neighbors granddaughter was over visiting. She was only a year or two younger than me. I was playing some music on the radio and singing along, and she looked at me and started to mimick... though she didn't know the words. It sort of threw me off and annoyed me.

To be honest, I don't think that I feel I'm lacking identity. However, being able to relate to most types, most people, especially having empathy, can be a bit confusing when you're trying to figure out where you stand on an issue or what your preferences are...a lot of the times you stand in the middle of the road. This is because on deciding on an issue, you can really see and understand the reason behind most sides. I think I use my gut feeling a lot and also my emotions to guide me as to what it is I like, what I want and what I need.

For example, the issue of whether or not abortion is morally wrong. I can see and understand the scientists as well as the religious zealots and though I may side more with one or the other, I usually can't, or don't, oppose the other either. Scientifically, you may not be killing a human, just the initial make up of a potential human. I can also see and understand that looking at this from a more spiritual outlook, once the sperm penetrates the ovule, that there is the potential for life and a human soul might exist. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say here is that although I believe in science, I also have strong spiritual beliefs. So I probably won't be sure what I would do if I conceived and unwanted child until it actually happens. Going with my gut feeling and what weighs on my emotions, I may not be able to get over the guilt of ending a pregnancy. However, if I consider a horrible situation like my being raped and then to consider the shame of what it would be like to carry a child of a man who traumatized me and the type of life I could offer it's child...I might actually have the balls to go through with an abortion.

Ditto... I've always considered myself even moderate in politics, and always have a problem making decisions due to seeing multiple sides. However, I've come to embrace this aspect in myself.

But also, in dealing with individual people, I often find myself or my personality as malleable or even nonexistant. Molding to the scene or person I am talking to... not on person... but just unconsciously. This aspect of myself would cause me a lot of grief in the past, as it seemed most people had a definite personality all their own, and I didn't.

I think you make some excellent points. I like your movie quote. I was reading how for nines it is a good idea to form some kind of identity. A definition of their personality even though there is an innate understanding there is no such thing in reality.

This is very similar to 4's, as well. Another reason I have a hard time deciding if perhaps I'm actually a 9. Hmm...

 

[wolfy]

The first part of this sort of just sounds like Se or Ne. I often wish there was more study with the mbti and enneagram together to get a better understanding.

I think that being in sync with the environment is a better phrase than merging. Enneagram is often written from a unhealthy perspective. I just made a mash in my own mind...

As far as the second part of this goes... how do you personally feel when someone comes at you in the same way? It reminded me of a story of my own... I was in middle school and my neighbors granddaughter was over visiting. She was only a year or two younger than me. I was playing some music on the radio and singing along, and she looked at me and started to mimick... though she didn't know the words. It sort of threw me off and annoyed me.

If people pretend to like what I like? It annoys me if I notice, I want everyone to have clear opinions so I can keep my bearings.

 

[brainheart]

Difference between four and nine- my immediate, have to restrain reflex, is to assert my unique opinion. If someone asks me if I like a song and I don't, I pretty much have to cover my mouth in order not to say, "no." On matters that I care less about, I am less likely to be so opinionated. That doesn't mean I don't respect other opinions and allow people to have other opinions- I don't consider my opinions to necessarily be right- but they are mine, and they are felt strongly.