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  1. #171
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    [youtube=C7P7NTIJHFk]9[/youtube]

    [youtube=OKHAxnM3wuM]5[/youtube]

    Once the differences click for you, you'll wonder how you ever confused the two in the first place.
    Hello

  2. #172
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Once the differences click for you, you'll wonder how you ever confused the two in the first place.
    I don't identify with the characterization that 9s lose their sense of self when around other people, but maybe I'm just not around other people enough. Or maybe I'm still in denial. But it seems to be at odds with being an Fi dom. And I dislike intensely having my places of solitude intruded upon, as most introverts probably do. So if I were going by those vids I would call myself a 5. Which I'm 90% sure I'm not.

    Damn, I guess I'm going to have to revisit enneagram.

  3. #173
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Let's use an example:

    Say you have a religious mother but you're an atheist. She expects you to attend church. If you tell you her you don't and that you don't believe in God, you will trigger a crying guilt trip that will last for hours, and the subject will come up again and again. Why not simply avoid the subject then? Or - if you don't avoid it, what is the point of not avoiding it? You'll hurt your mother, why hurt her?
    MacG,

    So we're both 9s! How cool. We have a lot in common with the way we interact with people, I think. We play similar roles in their lives even though we have slightly different methods.

    So you're a w1 and I'm supposedly a w5 or something, I think. I don't remember. But I'll tell you how I responded to this post. I would not avoid that kind of situation because for me, making peace sometimes requires that people confront their hangups. If a person is narrow minded and hung up on someone else's private, supposedly personal beliefs, they're misguided. They're not seeing the big picture, not giving people freedom, not living in harmony with others, and in my opinion, not really in harmony with themselves because they're so busy judging and micromanaging the world and their family like property. I would challenge that person in order to shake them up, especially if I thought they were capable of change. Harmony is the same goal, but I'm usually willing to inflict pain if the end-result is positive. It's like administering a shot of antibiotics.

    I'm actually really curious about how you came to let go of your need to make sure people were okay. I read through it and didn't see the logical connection between knowing it was your tendency and letting go of that. I guess you just became aware that it was a personal thing you were doing? Can you explain the first post a little more?

  4. #174
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Let's use an example:

    Say you have a religious mother but you're an atheist. She expects you to attend church. If you tell you her you don't and that you don't believe in God, you will trigger a crying guilt trip that will last for hours, and the subject will come up again and again. Why not simply avoid the subject then? Or - if you don't avoid it, what is the point of not avoiding it? You'll hurt your mother, why hurt her?

    Hi Mac. Interesting thread!

    From a 9w? INTP -

    Religious feeling or lack thereof was a big challenge in my life, especially after I became very disillusioned with christianity around the age of 11 or 12 after a lot of independent reading (Sagan's Demon-haunted world made a particular impression). But I did not express this change of beliefs to anyone in my life - precisely because I could not tolerate the conflict it would generate. It was easy enough to go to church and tune out. My parents were not the type to ever ask what I thought, so I was safe as long as I never brought it up. I had a real internal crisis when I was 16 (when Catholics got confirmed in my diocese) because I would be publicly claiming a faith I did not hold. I kept telling myself I would say something, would stand up for what I felt, but ultimately I did not... I passively went along with the ritual and indoctrination. It was painful to me, but I imagined, less painful than upsetting a family I loved.

    Now as an older (but still young) adult I harbor a regret that I did not own my feelings, and that I was weak in that way. And I think my childish estimation of the pain and conflict that I avoided was perhaps over-estimated.

    The funny thing is, I didn't even learn my lesson. I dated a guy for years who was very religious (he was an INTJ). I saw how happy it made him that I went to church once (to see what his church was like)... and I kept going. For years. Listening to the sermons, giving money because they always pass the damn basket around every time, even trying to convince myself I felt something or believed something...

    Later, when that relationship ended I was finally honest enough to admit that I hated going to church and got nothing out of it - and it honestly may have contributed to the failure of the relationship which at that point I felt was constricting.

    So I guess in answer to the above, I don't think avoidance was a good thing. These are core beliefs, they are who you are, and by not being authentic you do a disservice to those that know you - real relationships should be built on a real version of you, not the one you have shaped to fit - it's almost condescending to do that. I hope I have learned, but I know I have to really focus on boundaries and expression of my own desires in the future (a key problem being that Fi is my weakest function, which makes me hesitant to insist on anything which is felt).
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
    - Umberto Eco

    INTP e9 (sx/so/sp)
    Ti = Ne (41.3) > Si (31.2) ~ Ni (31.1) ~ Te (30.1) > Se (24.1) >> Fe (21) & Fi (20.1)

  5. #175
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilo View Post
    So I guess in answer to the above, I don't think avoidance was a good thing. These are core beliefs, they are who you are, and by not being authentic you do a disservice to those that know you - real relationships should be built on a real version of you, not the one you have shaped to fit - it's almost condescending to do that.
    But isn't the problem with 9s that they do not know what their core beliefs are half the time? They just sort of take on the identity, goals, aspirations, beliefs, of an SO/parent/x in the "merging" process. Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
    Am I misreading it?
    This is one of the things I find most mystifying. I can understand wanting things to be harmonious. I cannot understand wanting things to be undifferentiated. That sounds like a kind of death. And it's funny because the other 2 "withdrawn" E types (4s and 5s) are so individualistic and iconoclastic...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #176
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
    Am I misreading it?
    As an unconfirmed type 9 this resonates with me, though it's not a matter of not believing in having a single point of view of my own so much as not knowing by which criterion to eliminate so many seemingly valid points of view. Picking one seems in many cases to be an absurdly arbitrary act, and it wouldn't surprise me if many 9s abdicate such a choice to an admired/trusted person in their life. I doubt that's something 9s would do with every choice they encounter -- just those that have them completely stumped, or those that they're sufficiently indifferent to.

    But I don't relate with this 'merging' process. I've always been suspicious of consensus views, particularly on moral issues. I don't take big heroic stands against them so much as steadfastly refuse to assent until I've had time to think things through and make up my own mind one way or the other. This often involves playing devil's advocate as a stalling device. Or simple abstention.

  7. #177
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    As an unconfirmed type 9 this resonates with me
    Why are you unconfirmed? Who needs to confirm it for you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #178
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why are you unconfirmed? Who needs to confirm it for you?
    Lemme go find someone I trust/admire.

  9. #179
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    But isn't the problem with 9s that they do not know what their core beliefs are half the time? They just sort of take on the identity, goals, aspirations, beliefs, of an SO/parent/x in the "merging" process. Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
    Am I misreading it?
    This is one of the things I find most mystifying. I can understand wanting things to be harmonious. I cannot understand wanting things to be undifferentiated. That sounds like a kind of death. And it's funny because the other 2 "withdrawn" E types (4s and 5s) are so individualistic and iconoclastic...
    Perhaps we have fewer "certainties" than other types, but this is somewhat dependent on MBTI type and (perhaps most importantly) age/maturity.

    As I get older, I realize that I mostly come to have solid core beliefs/feelings through experiences and not through reasoning (which can always be overturned by superior evidence, and is therefore tentative) or Fi-dom style gut feelings (because these are, indeed, largely inacessible to me). Many of these experiences revolve around "trying on" the beliefs/aspirations of another and carrying it to the breaking point. (Unconsciously, of course). This is a rather slow, torturous way of gaining certainty/identity/beliefs. It seems until this process plays out I am indeed vulnerable to taking on too much of a valued "other".

    However, I do know know why it would have to be taken to the extreme breaking point. I could be wrong, but I think I have gained some insight from my last few relationships to identify that "constricting feeling" (as the 9 guy in the video above said, so aptly). So a 9 could become more sensitive to this as a way to re-assert boundaries when they are inevitably misplaced. Easier said than done, of course. I wish I had some older 9s to ask about this.

    And I agree about the undifferentiated death. To imagine myself in this situation I recoil strongly - I have a need for independence which is seemingly at war with the need to merge/be understood/have meaning.
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
    - Umberto Eco

    INTP e9 (sx/so/sp)
    Ti = Ne (41.3) > Si (31.2) ~ Ni (31.1) ~ Te (30.1) > Se (24.1) >> Fe (21) & Fi (20.1)

  10. #180
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I don't identify with the characterization that 9s lose their sense of self when around other people
    Guess you're not a 9 then

    [edit] don't think of it as losing your sense of self, think of it more as your sense of self dispersing into others
    Hello

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