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  1. #11
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well-sy, as a chickie married to an ESTJ (who I think is a 1) ... and I am a 9w1 (so feel the pull of perfection too) maybe I can help.

    When my hubs gets into an argument, he simply cannot empathize with another person if he thinks he has done nothing wrong or if he doesn't agree with their POV. Not that he is cruel or nasty, but as an ESTJ typically he needs to believe that he did something offensive before he can address it. He will make statements to the effect "Prove to me that I have offended you" or "Prove to me that what you did was the right/best thing" which, in the heat of the moment for a non-ESTJ / non-perfectionist feels very confrontational and extremely unsympathetic.

    And using myself as an example, I can feel like articulating the "answers" for feeling how I do on the spot is difficult and demanding, so can get aggravated with this interrogative style of discussion. I can even occasionally fall into it myself when accusations are leveled against me. I just want to efficiently get to the crux of the matter and resolve the dispute. As does the ESTJ but from a different motivational perspective.

    ESTJ response can seem like an unwarranted justification of bad behaviour instead of one that's been considered or even sincere - "I hear what you are telling me, I appreciate your POV even though it differs from my own." It sounds more like - "You are wrong, I didn't say that to mean that so how can you think that."

    I'll tell you what is a BIG help for ESTJ's (and for anyone!) - learning active listening. https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits.php is a great book that gets to the how-to crux of it without a lot of filler. Its a great book btw, love that guy.

    Active listening will help your audience feel like you have heard them, and give you the necessary pause to let your feelings process what you are hearing; you don't have to agree to provide empathy, and you will get closer to understanding their POV.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    He will make statements to the effect "Prove to me that I have offended you" or "Prove to me that what you did was the right/best thing" which, in the heat of the moment for a non-ESTJ / non-perfectionist feels very confrontational and extremely unsympathetic.
    Which is sad, because, as you know, we never mean it that way. We're just curious. Although this didn't happen in the confrontational moment I described earlier, because I knew that I had to tread lightly around the person who was frustrated with me. Discounting the excuse-making, I pretty much shut down, because I couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't risky.
    ESTJ response can seem like an unwarranted justification of bad behaviour instead of one that's been considered or even sincere - "I hear what you are telling me, I appreciate your POV even though it differs from my own." It sounds more like - "You are wrong, I didn't say that to mean that so how can you think that."
    That was definitely a problem yesterday. How might I be more clear as to why I justify my actions?

    I'll tell you what is a BIG help for ESTJ's (and for anyone!) - learning active listening. https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits.php is a great book that gets to the how-to crux of it without a lot of filler. Its a great book btw, love that guy.

    Active listening will help your audience feel like you have heard them, and give you the necessary pause to let your feelings process what you are hearing; you don't have to agree to provide empathy, and you will get closer to understanding their POV.
    Great suggestion. Now I just need to get myself to remember that when I'm feeling attacked, and to suppress my gut reactions...
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #13
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    In my case, I don´t see it as making excuses, but as thinking in a loud voice about what went wrong.

    I do that quite often, and try my best to prevent pepole from thinking that they are excuses, because I don´t like them. I place all the blame on myself.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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    LII/INTj (Analyst) - 1w9 Sp/Sx - RC|O|EI - Melancholy/Choleric

  4. #14
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    My brother does this, but it only bothers me when his neglect nearly burns the house down. He can think of the reasons all he wants, but what I want to know is will he do something about it?

    Not sure, and trying to figure out why it happend? Great, first step in solving a problem is piecing together what went wrong. The thing is, what went wrong isn't the be all end all of making sure it will never happen again. I'd be less inclined to be annoyed with expressed diagnostics if the diagnostics were followed up by expressed preperation of solutions.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    In my case, I don´t see it as making excuses, but as thinking in a loud voice about what went wrong.
    That's exactly what it is. Good word choice.
    I do that quite often, and try my best to prevent pepole from thinking that they are excuses, because I don´t like them. I place all the blame on myself.
    That might be a good thing for me to try - prefacing my explanations with "I am entirely to blame, and here is why I did what I did..."
    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    My brother does this, but it only bothers me when his neglect nearly burns the house down. He can think of the reasons all he wants, but what I want to know is will he do something about it?

    Not sure, and trying to figure out why it happend? Great, first step in solving a problem is piecing together what went wrong. The thing is, what went wrong isn't the be all end all of making sure it will never happen again. I'd be less inclined to be annoyed with expressed diagnostics if the diagnostics were followed up by expressed preperation of solutions.
    Thank you for this post. It really made me think. I had to wait a few hours before I responded...

    Well, the problem is that in most situations where I feel the need to explain myself in great lengthy detail, I feel like I either can't think of a solution, or there isn't one. Like in the situation I described, I had made someone angry, and the only way I can think of to fix someone's anger is to appease them or at least hope that, when shown all of my evidence, they'll cut me some slack so I won't have to deal with their bad vibes anymore. I make the most excuses in situations where "what's done is done". If I was your brother, I would also have no idea what else to do except explain myself and apologize. I mean, I almost burned the house down, sure. But the damage is done, and practical solutions don't fix emotional damage. Even if I singlehandedly fixed all the burn damage (and yes, I'm making stuff up here; I have no idea if this is how it happened), the family might still be resentful and not trust me.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #16
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well, the problem is that in most situations where I feel the need to explain myself in great lengthy detail, I feel like I either can't think of a solution, or there isn't one. Like in the situation I described, I had made someone angry, and the only way I can think of to fix someone's anger is to appease them or at least hope that, when shown all of my evidence, they'll cut me some slack so I won't have to deal with their bad vibes anymore. I make the most excuses in situations where "what's done is done". If I was your brother, I would also have no idea what else to do except explain myself and apologize. I mean, I almost burned the house down, sure. But the damage is done, and practical solutions don't fix emotional damage. Even if I singlehandedly fixed all the burn damage (and yes, I'm making stuff up here; I have no idea if this is how it happened), the family might still be resentful and not trust me.
    The emotional thing I can get over. My brother's habit of nearly burning the house down, on the other hand, is a chronic safety hazard. He has done this three times and destroyed one of my pots. His reason is because he's tired and can't focus; situations that could be remedied some how if some thought was put into it. I also don't like the word excuse, it feels like an attempt to shirk responsibility. I prefer the word reason, because a reason can be good, bad, or otherwise yet carry the potential to work out a solution. Pure ignorance (to be taken as lack of knowledge, not being brashly stupid) is understandable which is why people should be given chances (and help to do better next time). Shit happens, I'm ok with that. When a specific kind of shit becomes chronic, there's a problem and a solution is needed. The solution also does not necessarily have to be implemented by the "offending" party. Sometimes another part of the system, like the "offended" also needs some form of problem solving, or maybe a collaborative effort. Everything has a solution if the parties involved are willing to think and act on it. Then again, that's the kicker, all parties need to be involved in some way.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #17
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Which is sad, because, as you know, we never mean it that way. We're just curious. Although this didn't happen in the confrontational moment I described earlier, because I knew that I had to tread lightly around the person who was frustrated with me. Discounting the excuse-making, I pretty much shut down, because I couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't risky.

    That was definitely a problem yesterday. How might I be more clear as to why I justify my actions?


    Great suggestion. Now I just need to get myself to remember that when I'm feeling attacked, and to suppress my gut reactions...
    Great thread! I am a 1w2 but an ENFJ.(Highest trait was perfectionism unfortunately, I think it because I am really high J) There are a few here in the forum. I think we come off as sweet and caring but underneath are pretty serious and "not as sweet internally". I understand what you are thinking and I think you mentioned not reacting to your gut reactions- that is key it is the instinctual tiad so when told we are wrong or did something to offend we are taken aback since we did it instinctively. I have heard it said that "ENFJ's are always right, even when they aren't" and think that must be the 1s." IN those cases I can't justify well in the moment since I just "know" my gut and why I did what felt correct. I have to retreat and reason out the correct words or trace back the steps that I took.

    Also righteous anger gets us into trouble. I know mine is based on my values and no one is really helped by our standing our ground in the face of conflict and damaging relationships. Maybe that is the 2 wing in me but I try to think that my 1 "correctness" doesn't always serve other people and benefit the world and that helps me re-focus.

    Also the active listening is big. I have to work on that. But in cases where the other person is highly personal, attacking I just agree with them because then their argument it neutralized and they have to then begin working on the solution. You find they didn't actually think about they solution but mad at a personal attack at you and now have to face that. This doesn't work in a respectable conflict scenario though. Example: for me when a co-worker started hurling insults at a friend- calling her annoying, lazy, late to work (she was). I told her "agree! and now". The lady did and it neutralized the attacker and the co-worker could hold her head high and (she was good employee) and say now is there a problem to solve? The attacker was blank, shows the real motive of the person and now they have nothing left to throw out and move on.
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