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  1. #1
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Default relationships with e5 males

    this thread is sparked by the tom condon videos elsewhere. they really touched a nerve for me as an e5. i spoke with a female friend who knows quite a few females dating other e5 males who provided kind of a wake up call for me too.

    commitment issues? boundary issues? indecisiveness? stutter of action? fear of being overwhelmed by external forces? lack of affection?

    i know it's gotta be different for intp, intj, and infj. i feel like infjs struggle the most to figure out what is right for them. whereas intps have the most difficulty feeling emotion, and intjs have the most difficulty emotionally CONNECTING.

    the tom condon videos talked about feeling like one's will is overwhelmed and obscured by a hypersensitve reaction to the needs o others and an immediate response pulling in the opposite direction to assert an overly strong boundary because the previous one was too thin. it talked about identifying one's power with external forces, both positively and negatively, rather than getting up the courage to make one's own decisions and instead overthinking/trying to discover more information rather than remove extraneous.

    does this resonate? has anyone figured this out? e5s who have strong relationship perspectives or others who can pinpoint keys to e5 growth?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. :p I'll post anyway.

    I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

    The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

    I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.

    Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting?

  3. #3
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. :p I'll post anyway.
    The video is still on my mind too.

    I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.
    And this is a great example of it. I'm the same way when it comes to relationships (notably romantic). It's like I somehow initially feel I have absolutely no choice. Yes, powerless. Constricted, suffocating. It's also why the 'confusion of action and will' was so striking to me.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #4
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    That video kind of hit home for me as well. I’d already been thinking lately about this page I read, about e5s hoarding things like time and affection. I’d always recognized I have a strange relationship to time (so much that close friends have always noticed it too), and that being affectionate really drains me: but I’d never thought of it as hoarding before. I'm not particularly eager to admit this, but calling it 'hoarding' seems to fit.

    The Five, with his fixed resources, finds it difficult to give time or money or love because the fear is that people won't give back, they will just take and take. All Enneagram styles have a worldview of deprivation and this is the form the Five has to deal with. This is a world of scarcity.
    I had problems with this page when I first read it, but the Tom Condon video is putting that into perspective a little bit. I’m going to have to do more thinking (but of course) about how this hoarding fits in with what’s said in the video. I just wanted to drop this ‘e5s and hoarding’ bit into the conversation, it seems relevant. My initial thought is that it makes sense to be afraid of people not giving back if the boundaries (my feelings vs. the other’s feelings) are obscure.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member MiasmaResonance's Avatar
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    "i feel like infjs struggle the most to figure out what is right for them. whereas intps have the most difficulty feeling emotion, and intjs have the most difficulty emotionally CONNECTING."

    How true.

  6. #6
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i love the responses so far.

    i definitely have the fear of not being able to say no. wolfy linked information about an "ask" vs a "guess" culture in the infj japan thread. i identify with "guess." i rely on high-context (sensitive?) information to interpret what is likely and would be more focused on acting appropriately/with anticipation of others expectatoins. the mere thought of asking for something that someone did not want to give me seems humiliating. i am afraid of people who will just blatantly ask for something, because i feel totally hesitant and unconfident when trying to express my will. like because they've asked, i am only powerful if i find an external reason why i cannot meet their request. i cannot just say, no, i don't want to do that. when i do it feels forced and childish.

    and i have felt this in so many avenues. social situations that required me to participate in a way that i would have found embarrassing or likely/potentially embarrassing.

    it's no surprise that i took on such extreme aloofness for most of my adolescence. no one would ask for anything. if i did respond, they would just see seething disdain that would make them retract a request (think of the intp eye roll glare intended to put you in your place).

    i started this thread bc i was combining this feeling of powerlessness with another feeling--that of having no sense of what is best for me, what is true for me, what is real for me. which especially complicates decisions in relationships. but it's interesting bc i think, at this level of all e5, it seems like the issue we share hinges more around powerlessness and identifying with other forces and the way that obscures our wills and prevents clean expression of our desires into action and decision. i am very interested to hear how intp and intj e5s feel about coming to decisions and recognizing what is best for them, what is true for them. i feel like Ji is what is most grounding. but Ti feels more hypothetical and objective than Fi, which seems to provide the clearest connection between the will and personal truth. Fi seems most powerful and most incredible when it comes to knowing what it wants but making a decision based on what is emotionally/subjectively true. i think Fe can have these moments, and i'm feeling really tumultuous, but they don't stay forever like Fi. they don't get stored AS US. but emotional awareness feels so powerful and when you ride it to a peak it rages so profoundly and you can FEEL the rush of what is true and for a moment replaces all the details with an awareness of the sum total of everything.

    i'm interested in how this expands or contracts with the different instinctual subtypes. i'm sx/sp and my desire to connect DIRECTLY is powerful and important to me at all times. but i can't locate my own sense of who i am and how i am unique with regards to other e5s and other infjs. and it is extremely important for me right now to recognize the perspective of an sx e5, so e5, and sp e5 and how that affects what kinds of connections we need to sustain ourselves, grow, accept our power to make decisions and to act (courage!) and to get a sense of what inspires us to expand by allowing ourselves to become overwhelmed and not only withstanding it but realizing that such overwhelm can be the ultimate motivation for action and decision that we were lacking when we were postponing life collecting more information on whether or not we truly wanted to live it.

  7. #7
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    oh, without thinking too hard right now, i'm interested in how this sense of powerlessness plays out in a wider sense involving our risk aversion. and how w4 and w6 alter the dynamics.

    for a 5w4, my basic sense is that the anxiety response majorly kicks in when our sense of our own individuality/uniqueness is threatened in a way that either exposes the arbitrariness of our OWN special value or threatens to destroy it more aggressively. anything that greatly disillusions me that could be traced back to my own place within the world, feeling like it is no longer stable and that if i am not careful i will quickly realize that the meaning of the world can leak out and leave nothing but a flat, empty, lifeless representation devoid of real purpose. coupled with the feeling that the world is what we cannot control, and that it can crush us, and if our meaning is defeated (as Ni e5), or if our logical truth is defeated (as Ti causality e5), we can not successfully maintain our place in a "meaningfully ordered cosmos" and we must watch it crumble into nothingness and feel powerless to stop it and draw us into its gravitational force. well, that's the way into 5w4 nihilism at least.

    i don't know how this affects risk. i feel myself occasionally freeze and it freaks me out. i just have to avoid people who somehow become a representation that shows me my own shame.

  8. #8
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. :p I'll post anyway.

    I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

    The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.
    Excellent post, I can relate to this. The internal feelings that come with any sort of unwanted expectation, pulled-on's or forced-into's, are the same as these, often regardless of how extreme the requests are, so long as they make me feel uncomfortable. My feelings manifest themselves slightly differently though, it seems.

    Generally, I instantly detach myself from the expectation in a rude way so that I won't be called upon again, or, if I'm forced into the situation unwillingly, I become absurdly irritable/irritated and go about releasing that emotion through emotional coldness or combative speech and gestures, eg: passive-aggressive behavior, sarcasm, questioning rules/methods unecessarily to peeve people, core ideals attacking, etc.

    Also, you will lose respect points or get blacklisted. Most likely blacklisted.

    I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.
    Staying out of this one.

    Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting
    I would appreciate if someone did this as well. Outside perspective could be enlightening.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
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  9. #9
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. :p I'll post anyway.

    I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

    The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

    I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.

    Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting?
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    The video is still on my mind too.



    And this is a great example of it. I'm the same way when it comes to relationships (notably romantic). It's like I somehow initially feel I have absolutely no choice. Yes, powerless. Constricted, suffocating. It's also why the 'confusion of action and will' was so striking to me.
    Wow, I can so relate to this. When faced with a new relationship prospect, I am halfway between really excited and frozen by the inevitability of it all, which leads me to question why I was excited about it in the first place, and to question if I still am. I really am not crazy about this aspect of myself.
    Something Witty

  10. #10
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i definitely have the fear of not being able to say no. wolfy linked information about an "ask" vs a "guess" culture in the infj japan thread. i identify with "guess." i rely on high-context (sensitive?) information to interpret what is likely and would be more focused on acting appropriately/with anticipation of others expectatoins. the mere thought of asking for something that someone did not want to give me seems humiliating. i am afraid of people who will just blatantly ask for something, because i feel totally hesitant and unconfident when trying to express my will. like because they've asked, i am only powerful if i find an external reason why i cannot meet their request. i cannot just say, no, i don't want to do that. when i do it feels forced and childish.
    Wow, awesome. You're so much better at I than articulating some of this stuff; or maybe rather, you're mentioning stuff that tends to be so subconscious/reactive/instinctual for me that I haven't ever really thought about it long enough to put it into words, I just notice the feelings, the little bit of panic, the inability to JUSTIFY saying no, --> as if my feelings/will on it isn't of importance, that that's not a good enough reason.

    it's no surprise that i took on such extreme aloofness for most of my adolescence. no one would ask for anything. if i did respond, they would just see seething disdain that would make them retract a request (think of the intp eye roll glare intended to put you in your place).
    This reminds me of my middle school and high school experience. No one asked me for anything either, because for one I was extremely quiet and in my own world, and secondly, I projected an aura of not-wanting-to-help, I think, because I did not want to be used. People quickly learned not to ask me for help on homework, as my attitude was more begrudging and definitely an attitude of withholding and giving the briefest answer as possible; not an attitude of willingness to help or share my ideas. Very protective of my ideas/thoughts/work, because I valued that I suppose and I wanted everyone else to be able to do things on their own without depending on me. Again, out of a fear of being 'used', and maybe out of a bit of disdain that others couldn't figure it out themselves (I know that sounds bad, but I think I thought that). That's probably starting to go off into a different subject, though.

    i started this thread bc i was combining this feeling of powerlessness with another feeling--that of having no sense of what is best for me, what is true for me, what is real for me. which especially complicates decisions in relationships.
    I don't know if this has more to do with INFJ-ness/ NiFe stuff, or whether it has ties to being E5, but for me, perhaps tied to expectations/powerlessness, when I'm initially in a relationship I far too easily see the other persons' perspective, start questioning my own or rationalizing the others even if deep down I get that tickle or knot in my stomach saying something's not right... also, quite early on, I experience excitement about all of it but also immediate panic/worry, almost, that the other person will take me over or obliterate me; therefore I do overcompensate and try to build in more down time for myself, more independent-solo time, days in between without seeing them or talking so I can 'recover' my sense of self...again, all tied to some fear of lack of will/power, lack of ability to say no, knowing their expectations/desires, and being totally confused and at a loss of what to do if I'm not truly wanting to meet that, but questioning what that means, should I then even be with them at all?? etc etc etc Overanalyzing everything.


    i'm interested in how this expands or contracts with the different instinctual subtypes. i'm sx/sp and my desire to connect DIRECTLY is powerful and important to me at all times. but i can't locate my own sense of who i am and how i am unique with regards to other e5s and other infjs. and it is extremely important for me right now to recognize the perspective of an sx e5, so e5, and sp e5 and how that affects what kinds of connections we need to sustain ourselves, grow, accept our power to make decisions and to act (courage!)
    I'm sp/so. I think I have more of a fear of deep, vulnerable emotional bonding and the other person knowing every little nook and cranny about me; I tend to shy away from relationships of that level of intensity. This isn't to say that I don't truly value my friendships, because I do, but the level of openness, and subject-matter of my openness, is perhaps different from those of the sx disposition. I'm probably not desirous or in need as much or at all of deep bonding on an emotionally vulnerable level. I mean, in romantic relationships, of course love and chemistry and all that jazz is important for me, and the feeling of love is obviously powerful and I have experienced that, but in everyday life, when it comes to building and maintaining relationships, and what I need out of them, my relationships are not built around a need for deep emotional bonding/validation - so discussing my emotional state isn't natural for me or even something I'm comfortable doing, really. I'll talk about stuff if I'm really having a problem or am in turmoil, like to a trusted friend, but I don't have heart-to-hearts like many others do, or need. Most of my emotional stuff is handled within, and I don't externalize much of it at all.

    I know there's lots of other stuff I could cover, but I tend to not do as well when I'm left to just throw free-flowing thoughts out there, without something more specific to latch onto - specific questions, scenarios/hypotheticals, etc. :-P
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