[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

[Bubbles]

I haven't seen any 4w3 FJs as of yet, only FPs, so I wonder how that affects things as well. That wasn't the first time I've been told I'm probably not 4w3, but I could give examples that illustrate stereotypical 3 qualities. Like my penchant for fashion and desire to be a performer when I was younger. My last avatar was pretty 3ish too, I think.

That's strange, we have less 4w3 FJs? Huh. That makes no sense. I think one should come up and say stuff.

We're waiting.

 

[brainheart]

I don't know... I research the hell out of stuff, too, LaurenAshley. I'm all about checking out twenty books about the same thing at the library. But the thing is, no matter how confident I am in my conclusion, the second someone plants a tinge of doubt in my brain about that conclusion, it's like everything I thought gets tossed out and I have to start over. It's irritating.

 

[Bubbles]

I don't know... I research the hell out of stuff, too, LaurenAshley. I'm all about checking out twenty books about the same thing at the library. But the thing is, no matter how confident I am in my conclusion, the second someone plants a tinge of doubt in my brain about that conclusion, it's like everything I thought gets tossed out and I have to start over. It's irritating.

Ridiculous, me too! So annoying. I was fine with being 4w5 until the instant someone laughed at it.

 

[brainheart]

Yeah, I was telling my fellow 4w3 (but INFP) friend that I concluded I was actually an ISFP, not an INFP and her response was, "Really? You're sure?" And I instantly felt down, thinking "Oh no... shit! I have no clue what I'm talking about! Why else would she say that? I am so wrong..."

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah, I was telling my fellow 4w3 (but INFP) friend that I concluded I was actually an ISFP, not an INFP and her response was, "Really? You're sure?" And I instantly felt down, thinking "Oh no... shit! I have no clue what I'm talking about! Why else would she say that? I am so wrong..."

Oh my God, this reminds me of my initial problems with socionics... xD "So do you think I'm this? Well what about this? " Self-evaluating is so difficult!

 

[brainheart]

I just noticed you're a Cancer. So am I...

 

[psyche]

Hey, good luck with that novel. I'm glad you've found motivation here.

I'll definitely check the movie out. (Have already seen I'm Not There )




I think the 'lightness' refers more to our external behaviour. For me anyway, I may be really intense and take myself very seriously deep down, but when I'm dealing with others I'm often very frivolous and silly. I think that deep down, there's this worry that no one would like my serious, heavy self, so I try and impress them instead with humour and easygoingness. But this behaviour doesn't make me any less dark or intense- we are still 4s, after all.



Sure, we might not go out of our way to seek attention in a direct, immediate "Hey look at me - right now!" kind of way. But deep down, we want to be acknowledged, and this helps us overcome our self consciousness (and for my part, laziness) and achieve or create something that will get us recognised.

I can totally relate to both your comments here. Well said!

 

[psyche]

This sounds like disintegration actually! When unhappy, a 4 disintegrates into 2, and they therefore have unhealthy 2 tendencies. That can appear like 3, but in actuality 3s are more concerned with APPROVAL and IMAGE and 2s are concerned with LOVE and ACCEPTANCE. So that's why I think you're talking about disintegration here.


Well, that's odd. This sounds very 4w5. 4s are more likely to explore their darker side and puzzle through their emotions when utilizing the 5 wing. This leads to a much heavier and darker mood than the lightness of a 4 trying to express their creative side in an extroverted show of 3.


For real? I totally do that. And in conversations with other 4w3s, I've noticed this flaw is quite common among us.

I'm curious, why do you see yourself as 4w3?



^ Definitely agree. To all the above.

My 3ness is definitely not disintegration. It's when I pour myself into my work/career/social life. I know what it feels like to be at 2, and it's a whole different experience. It's when I'm in a particular type of relationship stress, actually, but that's another thread.

I'm definitely not 4w5, though I have a lot of 5. I identify very strongly with 3, my energy is dynamic when I'm interacting with others, I'm a "go-getter" and am very much about setting and reaching goals. I have a certain outward focus and energetic momentum that is much more 3 than 5.

 

[Bubbles]

My 3ness is definitely not disintegration. It's when I pour myself into my work/career/social life. I know what it feels like to be at 2, and it's a whole different experience. It's when I'm in a particular type of relationship stress, actually, but that's another thread.

I'm definitely not 4w5, though I have a lot of 5. I identify very strongly with 3, my energy is dynamic when I'm interacting with others, I'm a "go-getter" and am very much about setting and reaching goals. I have a certain outward focus and energetic momentum that is much more 3 than 5.

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[the state i am in]

one of my best friend's is a 4w3 entp. it's an interesting combination.

i think the e4 example of glowering at someone with envy is just common 4 practice. i do this too, but usually it's between a sandwich of 5 rationalization, Ti self-justification, etc. it's really really easy for the F nature to focus entirely on implicit subtext that could be perceived as threatening. the process of comparison is really just awful when you are hyper-aware/sensitive of the implications, when you see the way those meanings relate to the whole, and when you don't have the resources or balance in the moment to keep moving rather than fixate on the possible negative implications. i'm just a w4, but it still seriously fucks me up at times. the rationalization doesn't help either, the tension between the types helps provide, tho, an awareness that neither perspective is right by itself, and i need to learn to accept more than i do, keep my eyes open, go with it, and move on.

5w4 and 3w4 are an interesting contrast. they are two of the most private enneagram types. the w4 is young and babylike, and produces a desire for authenticity that drives expression amidst the 3 acting/selling and the 5 withholding. i see 4w3 as more light, aristocratic, natural-seeming, easy to like, faultlessly charming, and going with the flow than either of the w4 types. the w4 is usually a younger, less advanced e4 version, whereas 4w3 turns their own inner struggles into a desire to impact the larger milieu, which is usually great. very ambitious. my 4w3 friend and i spend a lot of time discussing how art and business fit together. he's a natural entp marketer, and a very talented artist with great ideas, social experiments, etc. we just see art as the process by which you create a brand identity, situate your product within a larger social sphere, create economic self-sufficiency, pay more attention to and invest more effort in REACHING your audience, and think about models of group work that help create an environment that is colloboratively productive. 4w3s seem to have a natural nose for this, and it washes away a lot of the pretense and the red tape aspects of the process and gets straight to the fucking point.

my favorite 4w3 was walt whitman (tho i think a lot of great writers and playwrights, especially, are 4w3s), who read emerson's essay "the poet" and tried to become the epic bard of the american self, the teller of the american 19th century zeitgeist, and a metaphysical/mystic poet disclosing the cosmic purpose of the world to itself. it's pretty good, and his desire to reach the common man, the working class, the marginal subjectivities, the aboriginal activities, using the actual language of THEM and not his own expectant "poetic" language, it just all fits (he's enfp). he seems so strategic when you analyze his approach. he loses touch with himself at times but *usually* realizes his mistake before he gets too carried away and propagandaist (which is the downside of being so scattered and focusing on outward image-projection rather than inward image self-knowledge/self-analysis).

also, as far as 4w3 nfjs go, i'd suggest leonard cohen. i'd guess 4w3 is more likely enfj than infj, tho regardless a 4w3 infj would have to look pretty damn enfj, and it would be difficult to discern that Ni really was dominant over Fe. tho 4w3 having Se tertiary over inferior and Fe dom over Ni would seem more immediately adaptable and look way more smooth, natural, etc.

 

[brainheart]

my favorite 4w3 was walt whitman (tho i think a lot of great writers and playwrights, especially, are 4w3s), who read emerson's essay "the poet" and tried to become the epic bard of the american self, the teller of the american 19th century zeitgeist, and a metaphysical/mystic poet disclosing the cosmic purpose of the world to itself. it's pretty good, and his desire to reach the common man, the working class, the marginal subjectivities, the aboriginal activities, using the actual language of THEM and not his own expectant "poetic" language, it just all fits (he's enfp). he seems so strategic when you analyze his approach. he loses touch with himself at times but *usually* realizes his mistake before he gets too carried away and propagandaist (which is the downside of being so scattered and focusing on outward image-projection rather than inward image self-knowledge/self-analysis).

I see Bob Dylan like this, too. Not that I'm trying to get into that sort of discussion, that's just who else I think of when I read this.

 

[the state i am in]

I see Bob Dylan like this, too. Not that I'm trying to get into that sort of discussion, that's just who else I think of when I read this.

there's a great youtube like rap thing of bob dylan that is one of the things that convinced me he was an isfp (previously much argument had him as infj). i had him as 4w5, but i'm considering 4w3 might make more sense (i'm also having the same thoughts on a thread about ira kaplan from yo la tengo). thoughts? (dylan DOES seem damn stubborn in later life tho, and i can't imagine that as a 4w3 feel. 4w3 feels younger (like jerry garcia later in life)).

 

[brainheart]

Yeah, but Bob is such an entertainer... he built up this whole false persona- making up stuff about where he was from, changing his name, channeling Woody Guthrie and then doing the rock thing and then doing the country thing and then doing the gospel thing... I think the film I'm Not There documents Bob Dylan's shape-shifting tremendously well. It's like you never know who the real Bob Dylan is... he keeps that hidden, which seems pretty 4w3.

But I also know you know far more about the enneagram than I do, and here I thought I was a 4w5 for quite some time and now I'm not even really sure what that would look like...

Ira... I don't know well enough to say. Although I saw them play recently and they were so psyched and willing to play whatever the crowd wanted them to play. They were taking requests, etc, while when I saw Sonic Youth it was such an opposite situation... 'we're playing our new album and we'll play a couple of old obscure songs but we're not going to play any of our hits even though this is a sold out house that would freak if we played 100%... we don't care, we're the artists here.' Okay, so maybe they didn't say that in so many words, but that's what they did, which seems like more of a 4w5 thing. And Bob Dylan is similar in that respect, for sure.

 

[the state i am in]

i have thursten as entp 7w8, lee renaldo as an infj, and kim as an intx. i can't figure out if she seems more intp or more intj. i think she's a 5 of some sort.

the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).

 

[Bubbles]

the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).

So the image I'm getting here is that a 5 appears much more smooth, collected, and presentable, and a 3 is more fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants?

 

[brainheart]

the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).

This is kind of funny to me because I went and read the quite detailed description of both the wings in the Riso-Hudson Enneagram book and the 4w5 definitely fit me more. And I hate sharing my creations with anyone unless I think they're somewhat close to perfect. That book considers Bob Dylan to be a 4w5, which maybe you already knew.

 

[speculative]

And I hate sharing my creations with anyone unless I think they're somewhat close to perfect.

My 4w5 self hates this also. This ties into the avarice (not the dictionary definition, but if you're reading Riso/Hudson you already know that) of the 5.

3 and 5 are in different triads, so they should have fairly different methods of interacting with the world based on that...

 

[Bubbles]

My 4w5 self hates this also. This ties into the avarice (not the dictionary definition, but if you're reading Riso/Hudson you already know that) of the 5.

3 and 5 are in different triads, so they should have fairly different methods of interacting with the world based on that...

Yeah, I think maybe both sides do this, but the 4w5 wants to be credible/the whole avarice thing, and the 4w3 wants to be "performance-perfect," if you will, to best present themselves (Anyone else do that push-pull thing? "Yeah, you can read my poem...no, you can't read my poem, let me edit more. Um, actually, how about tomorrow? After I've edited even more?"). 5s and 3s in general care about perfectionism, just in different ways.

I do notice I embrace my inner 5 wing a lot more when writing or artistically expressing myself, though. I think different settings can bring out the inferior wing, but I have no credible source to attach that theory with.

 

[brainheart]

Yeah, I'm saying in the Riso-Hudson I am more five. In the description on here I'm more three... but I think the R-H one is more wildly accepted. But I'd say I oscillate between the two... maybe being bipolar has something to do with that? I dunno...

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah, I'm saying in the Riso-Hudson I am more five. In the description on here I'm more three... but I think the R-H one is more wildly accepted. But I'd say I oscillate between the two... maybe being bipolar has something to do with that? I dunno...

This is why I hate profiles, they can be so general and horoscope-like. Honestly, 4s, despite their wings, are going to act similarly--they're just going to have slightly different motivations, and therefore subtly different external qualities.

For example. I got my ENTP friend into enneagram, and her girlfriend is a INFP, 4w5, social first. We get along fabulously. Appearance-wise, we're quite similar. But on discussing our behaviors as a 4, we see all these subtle differences.

Summarization:
4w5: "Oh, I hate showing my art to people until I absolutely love it and find it as beautiful and as perfect as it's going to get. But the criticism can help so much."

Me: "Yeah, I don't like showing things until they're perfect either...and it can annoy me sometimes when I know people aren't seeing the best side of me. Because I'm like, urgh I'm way better than this, I promise!"

(Of course, I'm willing to bet she'll see this on TypoC and be like, "I didn't say it like that!" This is what I get for sharing my inner personality-theory nerd.)

But I think that's more of a 4 fear-of-rejection, just with slightly different side motivators. See how the 4w5 is more concerned with mastery over the art? I'm certainly interested in that as well, but with the intent to flaunt my mastery. I'm upset that people won't see me at my best; she's upset that she won't see her best. Subtle difference, and of course, both wings influence a person regardless of which is dominant.