[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

[BlackCat]

Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...:

Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.

4w5s and 4w3s have various advantages and disadvantages. That's just how it goes.

Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.

One of the main things that made me notice this is when I was talking to some other 9's. As a 9w8, I sort of wish that I could detach more and not be so aggressive in debates and when I get a strong opinion. I also wish I were as disciplined as a 9w1. 9w1s are very terrified of any sort of conflict, even a debate, so they detach and don't seem to get opinionated (or just don't promote their opinion in a disagreement). I envy that. 9w1s though seem to wish that they could do confrontations and promoting their side of things like a 9w8 would.

Udog once told me when we were comparing our types (9w1 vs 9w8) that he wished he could engage in conflict as easily as I could. The thing with me, is if I have no desire to keep up a bond with someone I stop caring about keeping the peace. 9w1s just seem to always keep the peace. I sort of envy that as well, but what I do just seems to naturally happen.

 

[briochick]

I agree. I wish I were more successful and motivated and able to blend better. Sometimes I can play the chameleon, but at great personal cost to myself. I pretty much have two settings in public, aggressive or acquiescing. I usually choose aggressive because, well, other people are wrong and *obviously* not using their brains and no one else is saying anything....
I've been told, more than once, that people would like me better if I learned how to use small talk. Pfftt! what do they know
Still, looking inside myself I feel very dichotomous, and as I get older and learn to adapt to situations, sell myself, and be what other people want, I increasingly feel like a liar, and therefore unworthy of good things, since they were gotten un-authentically.

But couldn't the social variants effect even the responses of 4w5s and 4w3s. Like, split them into even further subgroupings?

 

[Bubbles]

I agree. I wish I were more successful and motivated and able to blend better. Sometimes I can play the chameleon, but at great personal cost to myself. I pretty much have two settings in public, aggressive or acquiescing. I usually choose aggressive because, well, other people are wrong and *obviously* not using their brains and no one else is saying anything....
I've been told, more than once, that people would like me better if I learned how to use small talk. Pfftt! what do they know
Still, looking inside myself I feel very dichotomous, and as I get older and learn to adapt to situations, sell myself, and be what other people want, I increasingly feel like a liar, and therefore unworthy of good things, since they were gotten un-authentically.

But couldn't the social variants effect even the responses of 4w5s and 4w3s. Like, split them into even further subgroupings?

I agree, and I personally think social variants probably have higher effect on a person's behavior than their enneagram type. Being so/sx, I find myself more like to engage in this dichotomous behavior as I have that constant need to be appreciated and liked by the group I'm in. For example, an sp first, I think, would be more likely to behave as they naturally are, since they are not as out to impress. (Believe me, being in a relationship with an sp/sx makes this paaainfully clear.)

 

[speculative]

Some argue that the instinctual variants have more influence than the types. I do subscribe to the theory or wings, but when it comes to instinctual variants, to me that is where the Enneagram starts to get extremely complex, possibly beyond the point of practical usefulness. You've got 9 types (18 if you include wings), 9 levels of health for each type, so right there that's 162 possible combinations. Add in instinctual variants, and now you're up to 486 possible combinations. And that's before the somewhat controversial tri-types are added in. I'm not ruling out instinctual variants, however, simply because my SP variant resonates so deeply within me, in addition to the type 4 description.

 

[WoodsWoman]

I think I'm finally fairly sure I'm an 4w5 due to the information here... now to go back to the instinct variant thread - I know I drew some conclusions from that also.
Thanks

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.

Wouldn't MBTI type affect this? I'm an INFJ...introspection is what I do for a living.

Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.

I think I strive to be more like a [healthy] 3, although it isn't natural to me.

 

[Bubbles]

Some argue that the instinctual variants have more influence than the types. I do subscribe to the theory or wings, but when it comes to instinctual variants, to me that is where the Enneagram starts to get extremely complex, possibly beyond the point of practical usefulness. You've got 9 types (18 if you include wings), 9 levels of health for each type, so right there that's 162 possible combinations. Add in instinctual variants, and now you're up to 486 possible combinations. And that's before the somewhat controversial tri-types are added in. I'm not ruling out instinctual variants, however, simply because my SP variant resonates so deeply within me, in addition to the type 4 description.

Haha, no I get you. It's like how socionics is such a huge monster that it's mindboggling to try and learn it all. Wouldn't want that happening to enneagram.

 

[the state i am in]

I did some self-study of the Enneagram and it does seem I am 4w3 but everyone I speak to that knows about Enneagram, online and offline, says they don't think I am, and instead 4w5 or 5w4. These are people who know way more about Enneagram than I do, so I wonder. I feel strongly 3, 4, and 5, so maybe I have a balanced wing.

Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...

I do relate to this part very much:

i personally think 5w4 or 4w5 makes very much sense for you. you just don't seem to be nearly as flippant as 4w3s, much more focused. when we are funny, it's not a wild and flailing funny, but a focused dry humor.

I always test 4w5 and I relate to both 4 and 5 profiles (and sometimes test 5), but from BlackCat's description above it makes me question if I am more 4w3.

I relate to this:
their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style.

And I feel a huge sense of dichotomy in myself.

However, I do not relate to 3 descriptions on their own in the slightest, and I test pretty low on 3....

4w3s just look like naturals. they seem effortless. a bit haphazard. you seem carefully constructed and put together, like knowledge and mastery is very important to you, and more relevant for you than 4w3. i think 4w5 is just way more tied down to their ideas about the world, and they spend far more time refining these ideas until they're fucking perfect, whereas 4w3 is way more fake it til you make it.

4w3 looseness and lightness is enviable, i agree. i love 4w3 entp and enfp writers somewhat jealously. i feel so heavy, tight, somber, and sterile sometimes in comparison. yet we give their stylistics weight, purpose, depth, etc. intensely concentrating them, finishing them, completing them, synthesizing them, etc.

4w5s are the type that hold on to, revel in, fall in love/identify with their own contradictions. they articulate them more perfectly than any other type. they create the most honest internal record of the self, or the most honest autobiographical account of the self. 4w3s want to, but posture (see: walt whitman) and rely on stylistics to hold them together rather than on 5 rigor, accurate self-knowledge, and strict standards for internal coherency. but their style!

 

[Tiltyred]

I really wish the 4w5 descriptions would not be so gloomy in the outcome.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

i personally think 5w4 or 4w5 makes very much sense for you. you just don't seem to be nearly as flippant as 4w3s, much more focused. when we are funny, it's not a wild and flailing funny, but a focused dry humor... 4w3 looseness and lightness is enviable, i agree.

Oh, for sure I'm not flippant in the least. In "normal" mode, my gravity is nearly tangible; I'm serious to a near fault. If 4w3 is characterized by breeziness, I doubt I am one.

And I do specialize in dry humor. But my mother is English, so I learned from the best.

But then we would have to also consider instinctual variants, right? Whatever my type is, I'm absolutely positive I am sx/sp variant. And they aren't exactly lightweights. And then MBTI; a lot of 4w3 seem to be [N]FPs, INFJ might put a very different spin on it.

 

[the state i am in]

Oh, for sure I'm not flippant in the least. In "normal" mode, my gravity is nearly tangible; I'm serious to a near fault. If 4w3 is characterized by breeziness, I doubt I am one.

And I do specialize in dry humor. But my mother is English, so I learned from the best.

But then we would have to also consider instinctual variants, right? Whatever my type is, I'm absolutely positive I am sx/sp variant. And they aren't exactly lightweights. And then MBTI; a lot of 4w3 seem to be [N]FPs, INFJ might put a very different spin on it.

my friend is an entp 4w3. and then i think of enfp 4w3s before infp 4w3s. i wonder if beck hanson is an intp 4w3.

i struggle to imagine the spin infj would put on 4w3. Ti would be less accessible to make 3 work well, to know exactly how to respond. i think of 3 most commonly as Fe or Ti, not a dominant perceptual process. i am still struggling to figure out how infp 4w3 works (altho i know at least one guy who is probably the type).

 

[Lauren Ashley]

my friend is an entp 4w3. and then i think of enfp 4w3s before infp 4w3s. i wonder if beck hanson is an intp 4w3.

i struggle to imagine the spin infj would put on 4w3. Ti would be less accessible to make 3 work well, to know exactly how to respond. i think of 3 most commonly as Fe or Ti, not a dominant perceptual process. i am still struggling to figure out how infp 4w3 works (altho i know at least one guy who is probably the type).

Right, 4w3 is a bit more extraverted. But I could see how INFP would work; the 3 wing would push the INFP to put their creativity out there into the world. In my research I found a few writings on 4w3 by an INFP 4w3 and they seemed to me to be the most realistic and practical descriptions of the type.

How else would you characterize 4w3? I love picking your (extremely insightful) brain.

 

[Southern Kross]

I really wish the 4w5 descriptions would not be so gloomy in the outcome.

I know. Its so harsh and depressing, especially when its true. This statement makes me want to open up my wrists:

In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality.



But honestly, the MAJOR problem I have with enneagram typing is just how negative it is. Its like they take the most unhealthy, depressed, neurotic, nutso version of any given type and then use their behaviour to rake everyone else across the coals. Yeah, a lot of what is said may be true but only at my darkest, most extreme moments - its not really reflective of my day to day behaviour. And I refuse to believe that my negative aspects are more defining of my personality than my positive ones - but thats what enneagram tries to tell me.

Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.

4w5s and 4w3s have various advantages and disadvantages. That's just how it goes.

Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.

One of the main things that made me notice this is when I was talking to some other 9's. As a 9w8, I sort of wish that I could detach more and not be so aggressive in debates and when I get a strong opinion. I also wish I were as disciplined as a 9w1. 9w1s are very terrified of any sort of conflict, even a debate, so they detach and don't seem to get opinionated (or just don't promote their opinion in a disagreement). I envy that. 9w1s though seem to wish that they could do confrontations and promoting their side of things like a 9w8 would.

Udog once told me when we were comparing our types (9w1 vs 9w8) that he wished he could engage in conflict as easily as I could. The thing with me, is if I have no desire to keep up a bond with someone I stop caring about keeping the peace. 9w1s just seem to always keep the peace. I sort of envy that as well, but what I do just seems to naturally happen.

That's a really interesting observation. It makes sense because its truly the other side of yourself. Its something close enough to your experience that you can easily comprehend the idea of it but is just out of reach. I think it is true for me. I really aspire to those 3 behavioural traits: confidence, assertiveness, poise, gregariousness and charisma. When socializing, I often unconsciously try to feign these qualities, with mixed success (because I'm crap at it). I'm also attracted to those qualities in theory but in reality, they only truly appeal if they come with a '4-like' edge (ie. if they are 4w3 or 3w4). For example, assertiveness is only appealing to me if it comes with sensitivity; confidence with humility etc.

 

[the state i am in]

that's a really great point.

i have begun idealizing myself aiming for more 5w6 instead of the wanderingness of 4. i want to systematically attack, i want rigor, focus, refinement, empiricism, science, etc. but my methods are always and only wandering, walking, and accidental encountering, waiting for the time to be right/biding my time. it's so frustrating, i have all these ideas but i have to wait until they come around again, wait until the cycle hits at the right moment and thoughts integrate, etc. wait until what i've learned becomes useful, wait until the right question draws me out in the right way (to evolve, adapt, solve, etc). it drives me fucking mad.

i know what i need to do, but i can't do it bc it's not really what I (I!) (I!) need to do. it's what would make the most sense to attack the problem, but makes the least sense in terms of fulfilling what my actual needs are. yet my defense system and my life strategies are rooted in this approach, even tho my decisions eventually walk off the cliff like lemmings. hoping for divine intervention. i can either become different from myself and balance in a way that avoids relying so heavily on my nature, or i can embrace my particularities (read: faults) and turn into whatever kind of creature i may. which would cause me to drastically shift my goals unto this other sphere that i cannot yet see. in which i have no vision whatsoever how to integrate who i would be with the real and practical world, would have to allow it to direct and produce myself and my work with complete creative control over me.

 

[speculative]

I think I see what you're saying. On the other hand, although I can sometimes feel myself pulled in the direction of 5 (especially the wanting competency part), I strive to move in my direction of integration rather than my wing.

 

[Bubbles]

Right, 4w3 is a bit more extraverted. But I could see how INFP would work; the 3 wing would push the INFP to put their creativity out there into the world. In my research I found a few writings on 4w3 by an INFP 4w3 and they seemed to me to be the most realistic and practical descriptions of the type.

For me, I realized I was a 3 wing purely by accident. I also assumed I was 4w5, but when I brought up enneagram to friends, they kind of snickered a bit and were like, "So Ms. Competitive doesn't think she's a 3 wing. Riiiight."

It's very draining to be a 4w3 INFP. I'm a complete and total ham; I love being in the limelight if I'm acting in a show, or reading my stories to someone, or singing. I am an attention mongrel who tries very hard not to let her diva side show (because of course, INFPs *must* be modest ). My individuality just loves being praised. It's quite selfish, but I get a huge rush when I succeed at something I love--like writing--and sometimes I'll say "Oh, I'm surprised I got so much good feedback" but in my head my snarky little voice is saying "That's right, I got the best responses, take that, journalist lady on the left!"

It's not enough for me to express myself. I want someone to take note of it and like it. Of course, not all 4w3s are as immature in this department as me.

4w3s just look like naturals. they seem effortless. a bit haphazard.

This is exactly what we want you to think.

 

[the state i am in]

This is exactly what we want you to think.

i know you do, i see this for what it is. 4w3s are so patently "wandering" in spirit, they are always looking for the next thing, gotta stay fresh. it's always ahead of the curve, but never risking a synthesis that is too dangerous (think beck). enp 4w3s are a little more out there, so they do some crazier shit, but it's generally less pertinent NOW and more relevant for the future (think walt whitman). whereas beck, a probable intp 4w3, is abreast of the trends. a lot of the 4w3s will critique the trends or poke fun at them, but still rely heavily upon them in their own articulation/self-formulation. their way of avoiding this problem is to maintain the image of pure bricolage, bits and pieces and nothing more. avoiding the rigor that might trap you in a discourse in a specific lasting way, that might impact you more completely and make you rely on another way/form of creating your own authentic, unique, individual, stylized fresh position.

it creates an image of effortlessness bc it relies on image-control and situational jabs, disarming methods, etc to feel out its own position. whereas a 4w5 will take something, invest heavily in it, and complete a synthesis of it and itself. they both respond in different ways, but are both extremely useful. 4w3 has more immediate relevance, 4w5 takes a while to work its way into the culture, and is generally less naturally involved. requires far more commitment to get into it, etc.

4w3s have many many excellent leadership qualities. they absorb many important things from others, take good pieces, and are not so self-consciously absorbed with their own self-image. they let others do that for them, as long as they keep their internal/external pressure in-tact. they're amazing marketers and great at winning over others for a cause.

the haphazard bit is just that they know how to avoid situations that will trap them, they have a great nose for that. so they're very skilled at reading situations and working it to get what they want. but they still don't focus on critical rigor in a similar way. that kind of continued engagement is threatening to their identities. balancing this is one of the key life problems for 4w3s.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

It's very draining to be a 4w3 INFP. I'm a complete and total ham; I love being in the limelight if I'm acting in a show, or reading my stories to someone, or singing. I am an attention mongrel who tries very hard not to let her diva side show (because of course, INFPs *must* be modest ). My individuality just loves being praised. It's quite selfish, but I get a huge rush when I succeed at something I love--like writing--and sometimes I'll say "Oh, I'm surprised I got so much good feedback" but in my head my snarky little voice is saying "That's right, I got the best responses, take that, journalist lady on the left!"

It's not enough for me to express myself. I want someone to take note of it and like it. Of course, not all 4w3s are as immature in this department as me.

I thought this was just me. You mean to tell me that its because I'm a 4w3 that I seek attention and affirmation? Well ok, whatever explains it.
ISFP 4w3, creative psycho in disguise, yes? lol

The only think I have trouble understanding at this point is how ennagram and mbti work together. What is each of their purpose?

 

[Bubbles]

I thought this was just me. You mean to tell me that its because I'm a 4w3 that I seek attention and affirmation? Well ok, whatever explains it.
ISFP 4w3, creative psycho in disguise, yes? lol

It's a very 3 trait. 3s want to be successful, praiseworthy, appreciated for their accomplishments. Even by the people they've trampled to get where they are.

The only think I have trouble understanding at this point is how ennagram and mbti work together. What is each of their purpose?

From what I see:
Enneagram is based on your personal motivations and desires.
MBTI is based on your ways of interacting with the world.

 

[Thalassa]

It's a very 3 trait. 3s want to be successful, praiseworthy, appreciated for their accomplishments. Even by the people they've trampled to get where they are.


From what I see:
Enneagram is based on your personal motivations and desires.
MBTI is based on your ways of interacting with the world.

I do the attention/affirmation thing, too, very much so since the age of three as far as I can recall. I have no doubt in my mind that I'm a 4w3. marmalade.sunrise is an all-singing, all-dancing, "oh look at the A's I made on papers" one woman show until she slams the door in your face because she needs time alone.

I swear that looks worse on paper than it actually is. I hope.