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Thread: 4w3 vs 4w5

  1. #71
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my favorite 4w3 was walt whitman (tho i think a lot of great writers and playwrights, especially, are 4w3s), who read emerson's essay "the poet" and tried to become the epic bard of the american self, the teller of the american 19th century zeitgeist, and a metaphysical/mystic poet disclosing the cosmic purpose of the world to itself. it's pretty good, and his desire to reach the common man, the working class, the marginal subjectivities, the aboriginal activities, using the actual language of THEM and not his own expectant "poetic" language, it just all fits (he's enfp). he seems so strategic when you analyze his approach. he loses touch with himself at times but *usually* realizes his mistake before he gets too carried away and propagandaist (which is the downside of being so scattered and focusing on outward image-projection rather than inward image self-knowledge/self-analysis).
    I see Bob Dylan like this, too. Not that I'm trying to get into that sort of discussion, that's just who else I think of when I read this.

  2. #72
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I see Bob Dylan like this, too. Not that I'm trying to get into that sort of discussion, that's just who else I think of when I read this.
    there's a great youtube like rap thing of bob dylan that is one of the things that convinced me he was an isfp (previously much argument had him as infj). i had him as 4w5, but i'm considering 4w3 might make more sense (i'm also having the same thoughts on a thread about ira kaplan from yo la tengo). thoughts? (dylan DOES seem damn stubborn in later life tho, and i can't imagine that as a 4w3 feel. 4w3 feels younger (like jerry garcia later in life)).

  3. #73
    brainheart
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    Yeah, but Bob is such an entertainer... he built up this whole false persona- making up stuff about where he was from, changing his name, channeling Woody Guthrie and then doing the rock thing and then doing the country thing and then doing the gospel thing... I think the film I'm Not There documents Bob Dylan's shape-shifting tremendously well. It's like you never know who the real Bob Dylan is... he keeps that hidden, which seems pretty 4w3.

    But I also know you know far more about the enneagram than I do, and here I thought I was a 4w5 for quite some time and now I'm not even really sure what that would look like...

    Ira... I don't know well enough to say. Although I saw them play recently and they were so psyched and willing to play whatever the crowd wanted them to play. They were taking requests, etc, while when I saw Sonic Youth it was such an opposite situation... 'we're playing our new album and we'll play a couple of old obscure songs but we're not going to play any of our hits even though this is a sold out house that would freak if we played 100%... we don't care, we're the artists here.' Okay, so maybe they didn't say that in so many words, but that's what they did, which seems like more of a 4w5 thing. And Bob Dylan is similar in that respect, for sure.

  4. #74
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i have thursten as entp 7w8, lee renaldo as an infj, and kim as an intx. i can't figure out if she seems more intp or more intj. i think she's a 5 of some sort.

    the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).

  5. #75
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).
    So the image I'm getting here is that a 5 appears much more smooth, collected, and presentable, and a 3 is more fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants?
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  6. #76
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the thing about both 3s and 5s is that they are very private and keep much hidden. 5s withdraw, 3s actively try to convince you to see them a certain way. they will do whatever it takes to stay relevant and important. 5s wait until they have something perfected and understood before they share it with others in a "you can't reject me, this shit is PERFECT" kind of way (think radiohead).
    This is kind of funny to me because I went and read the quite detailed description of both the wings in the Riso-Hudson Enneagram book and the 4w5 definitely fit me more. And I hate sharing my creations with anyone unless I think they're somewhat close to perfect. That book considers Bob Dylan to be a 4w5, which maybe you already knew.

  7. #77
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    And I hate sharing my creations with anyone unless I think they're somewhat close to perfect.
    My 4w5 self hates this also. This ties into the avarice (not the dictionary definition, but if you're reading Riso/Hudson you already know that) of the 5.

    3 and 5 are in different triads, so they should have fairly different methods of interacting with the world based on that...
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  8. #78
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    My 4w5 self hates this also. This ties into the avarice (not the dictionary definition, but if you're reading Riso/Hudson you already know that) of the 5.

    3 and 5 are in different triads, so they should have fairly different methods of interacting with the world based on that...
    Yeah, I think maybe both sides do this, but the 4w5 wants to be credible/the whole avarice thing, and the 4w3 wants to be "performance-perfect," if you will, to best present themselves (Anyone else do that push-pull thing? "Yeah, you can read my poem...no, you can't read my poem, let me edit more. Um, actually, how about tomorrow? After I've edited even more?"). 5s and 3s in general care about perfectionism, just in different ways.

    I do notice I embrace my inner 5 wing a lot more when writing or artistically expressing myself, though. I think different settings can bring out the inferior wing, but I have no credible source to attach that theory with.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  9. #79
    brainheart
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    Yeah, I'm saying in the Riso-Hudson I am more five. In the description on here I'm more three... but I think the R-H one is more wildly accepted. But I'd say I oscillate between the two... maybe being bipolar has something to do with that? I dunno...

  10. #80
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, I'm saying in the Riso-Hudson I am more five. In the description on here I'm more three... but I think the R-H one is more wildly accepted. But I'd say I oscillate between the two... maybe being bipolar has something to do with that? I dunno...
    This is why I hate profiles, they can be so general and horoscope-like. Honestly, 4s, despite their wings, are going to act similarly--they're just going to have slightly different motivations, and therefore subtly different external qualities.

    For example. I got my ENTP friend into enneagram, and her girlfriend is a INFP, 4w5, social first. We get along fabulously. Appearance-wise, we're quite similar. But on discussing our behaviors as a 4, we see all these subtle differences.

    Summarization:
    4w5: "Oh, I hate showing my art to people until I absolutely love it and find it as beautiful and as perfect as it's going to get. But the criticism can help so much."

    Me: "Yeah, I don't like showing things until they're perfect either...and it can annoy me sometimes when I know people aren't seeing the best side of me. Because I'm like, urgh I'm way better than this, I promise!"

    (Of course, I'm willing to bet she'll see this on TypoC and be like, "I didn't say it like that!" This is what I get for sharing my inner personality-theory nerd.)

    But I think that's more of a 4 fear-of-rejection, just with slightly different side motivators. See how the 4w5 is more concerned with mastery over the art? I'm certainly interested in that as well, but with the intent to flaunt my mastery. I'm upset that people won't see me at my best; she's upset that she won't see her best. Subtle difference, and of course, both wings influence a person regardless of which is dominant.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

    My thoughts on...
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    DISCLAIMER: If I offend you, I'm 99.9% sure it's unintentional. So be sure to let me know, m'kay? (And yes, an INFP would stick this in their signature, lol.)
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