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Thread: 4w3 vs 4w5

  1. #31
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Oh, for sure I'm not flippant in the least. In "normal" mode, my gravity is nearly tangible; I'm serious to a near fault. If 4w3 is characterized by breeziness, I doubt I am one.

    And I do specialize in dry humor. But my mother is English, so I learned from the best.

    But then we would have to also consider instinctual variants, right? Whatever my type is, I'm absolutely positive I am sx/sp variant. And they aren't exactly lightweights. And then MBTI; a lot of 4w3 seem to be [N]FPs, INFJ might put a very different spin on it.
    my friend is an entp 4w3. and then i think of enfp 4w3s before infp 4w3s. i wonder if beck hanson is an intp 4w3.

    i struggle to imagine the spin infj would put on 4w3. Ti would be less accessible to make 3 work well, to know exactly how to respond. i think of 3 most commonly as Fe or Ti, not a dominant perceptual process. i am still struggling to figure out how infp 4w3 works (altho i know at least one guy who is probably the type).

  2. #32
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my friend is an entp 4w3. and then i think of enfp 4w3s before infp 4w3s. i wonder if beck hanson is an intp 4w3.

    i struggle to imagine the spin infj would put on 4w3. Ti would be less accessible to make 3 work well, to know exactly how to respond. i think of 3 most commonly as Fe or Ti, not a dominant perceptual process. i am still struggling to figure out how infp 4w3 works (altho i know at least one guy who is probably the type).
    Right, 4w3 is a bit more extraverted. But I could see how INFP would work; the 3 wing would push the INFP to put their creativity out there into the world. In my research I found a few writings on 4w3 by an INFP 4w3 and they seemed to me to be the most realistic and practical descriptions of the type.

    How else would you characterize 4w3? I love picking your (extremely insightful) brain.

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I really wish the 4w5 descriptions would not be so gloomy in the outcome.
    I know. Its so harsh and depressing, especially when its true. This statement makes me want to open up my wrists:

    In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality.



    But honestly, the MAJOR problem I have with enneagram typing is just how negative it is. Its like they take the most unhealthy, depressed, neurotic, nutso version of any given type and then use their behaviour to rake everyone else across the coals. Yeah, a lot of what is said may be true but only at my darkest, most extreme moments - its not really reflective of my day to day behaviour. And I refuse to believe that my negative aspects are more defining of my personality than my positive ones - but thats what enneagram tries to tell me.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.

    4w5s and 4w3s have various advantages and disadvantages. That's just how it goes.

    Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.

    One of the main things that made me notice this is when I was talking to some other 9's. As a 9w8, I sort of wish that I could detach more and not be so aggressive in debates and when I get a strong opinion. I also wish I were as disciplined as a 9w1. 9w1s are very terrified of any sort of conflict, even a debate, so they detach and don't seem to get opinionated (or just don't promote their opinion in a disagreement). I envy that. 9w1s though seem to wish that they could do confrontations and promoting their side of things like a 9w8 would.

    Udog once told me when we were comparing our types (9w1 vs 9w8) that he wished he could engage in conflict as easily as I could. The thing with me, is if I have no desire to keep up a bond with someone I stop caring about keeping the peace. 9w1s just seem to always keep the peace. I sort of envy that as well, but what I do just seems to naturally happen.
    That's a really interesting observation. It makes sense because its truly the other side of yourself. Its something close enough to your experience that you can easily comprehend the idea of it but is just out of reach. I think it is true for me. I really aspire to those 3 behavioural traits: confidence, assertiveness, poise, gregariousness and charisma. When socializing, I often unconsciously try to feign these qualities, with mixed success (because I'm crap at it). I'm also attracted to those qualities in theory but in reality, they only truly appeal if they come with a '4-like' edge (ie. if they are 4w3 or 3w4). For example, assertiveness is only appealing to me if it comes with sensitivity; confidence with humility etc.

  4. #34
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    that's a really great point.

    i have begun idealizing myself aiming for more 5w6 instead of the wanderingness of 4. i want to systematically attack, i want rigor, focus, refinement, empiricism, science, etc. but my methods are always and only wandering, walking, and accidental encountering, waiting for the time to be right/biding my time. it's so frustrating, i have all these ideas but i have to wait until they come around again, wait until the cycle hits at the right moment and thoughts integrate, etc. wait until what i've learned becomes useful, wait until the right question draws me out in the right way (to evolve, adapt, solve, etc). it drives me fucking mad.

    i know what i need to do, but i can't do it bc it's not really what I (I!) (I!) need to do. it's what would make the most sense to attack the problem, but makes the least sense in terms of fulfilling what my actual needs are. yet my defense system and my life strategies are rooted in this approach, even tho my decisions eventually walk off the cliff like lemmings. hoping for divine intervention. i can either become different from myself and balance in a way that avoids relying so heavily on my nature, or i can embrace my particularities (read: faults) and turn into whatever kind of creature i may. which would cause me to drastically shift my goals unto this other sphere that i cannot yet see. in which i have no vision whatsoever how to integrate who i would be with the real and practical world, would have to allow it to direct and produce myself and my work with complete creative control over me.

  5. #35
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    I think I see what you're saying. On the other hand, although I can sometimes feel myself pulled in the direction of 5 (especially the wanting competency part), I strive to move in my direction of integration rather than my wing.
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  6. #36
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Right, 4w3 is a bit more extraverted. But I could see how INFP would work; the 3 wing would push the INFP to put their creativity out there into the world. In my research I found a few writings on 4w3 by an INFP 4w3 and they seemed to me to be the most realistic and practical descriptions of the type.
    For me, I realized I was a 3 wing purely by accident. I also assumed I was 4w5, but when I brought up enneagram to friends, they kind of snickered a bit and were like, "So Ms. Competitive doesn't think she's a 3 wing. Riiiight."

    It's very draining to be a 4w3 INFP. I'm a complete and total ham; I love being in the limelight if I'm acting in a show, or reading my stories to someone, or singing. I am an attention mongrel who tries very hard not to let her diva side show (because of course, INFPs *must* be modest ). My individuality just loves being praised. It's quite selfish, but I get a huge rush when I succeed at something I love--like writing--and sometimes I'll say "Oh, I'm surprised I got so much good feedback" but in my head my snarky little voice is saying "That's right, I got the best responses, take that, journalist lady on the left!"

    It's not enough for me to express myself. I want someone to take note of it and like it. Of course, not all 4w3s are as immature in this department as me.

    4w3s just look like naturals. they seem effortless. a bit haphazard.
    This is exactly what we want you to think.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    This is exactly what we want you to think.
    i know you do, i see this for what it is. 4w3s are so patently "wandering" in spirit, they are always looking for the next thing, gotta stay fresh. it's always ahead of the curve, but never risking a synthesis that is too dangerous (think beck). enp 4w3s are a little more out there, so they do some crazier shit, but it's generally less pertinent NOW and more relevant for the future (think walt whitman). whereas beck, a probable intp 4w3, is abreast of the trends. a lot of the 4w3s will critique the trends or poke fun at them, but still rely heavily upon them in their own articulation/self-formulation. their way of avoiding this problem is to maintain the image of pure bricolage, bits and pieces and nothing more. avoiding the rigor that might trap you in a discourse in a specific lasting way, that might impact you more completely and make you rely on another way/form of creating your own authentic, unique, individual, stylized fresh position.

    it creates an image of effortlessness bc it relies on image-control and situational jabs, disarming methods, etc to feel out its own position. whereas a 4w5 will take something, invest heavily in it, and complete a synthesis of it and itself. they both respond in different ways, but are both extremely useful. 4w3 has more immediate relevance, 4w5 takes a while to work its way into the culture, and is generally less naturally involved. requires far more commitment to get into it, etc.

    4w3s have many many excellent leadership qualities. they absorb many important things from others, take good pieces, and are not so self-consciously absorbed with their own self-image. they let others do that for them, as long as they keep their internal/external pressure in-tact. they're amazing marketers and great at winning over others for a cause.

    the haphazard bit is just that they know how to avoid situations that will trap them, they have a great nose for that. so they're very skilled at reading situations and working it to get what they want. but they still don't focus on critical rigor in a similar way. that kind of continued engagement is threatening to their identities. balancing this is one of the key life problems for 4w3s.

  8. #38
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    It's very draining to be a 4w3 INFP. I'm a complete and total ham; I love being in the limelight if I'm acting in a show, or reading my stories to someone, or singing. I am an attention mongrel who tries very hard not to let her diva side show (because of course, INFPs *must* be modest ). My individuality just loves being praised. It's quite selfish, but I get a huge rush when I succeed at something I love--like writing--and sometimes I'll say "Oh, I'm surprised I got so much good feedback" but in my head my snarky little voice is saying "That's right, I got the best responses, take that, journalist lady on the left!"

    It's not enough for me to express myself. I want someone to take note of it and like it. Of course, not all 4w3s are as immature in this department as me.

    I thought this was just me. You mean to tell me that its because I'm a 4w3 that I seek attention and affirmation? Well ok, whatever explains it.
    ISFP 4w3, creative psycho in disguise, yes? lol

    The only think I have trouble understanding at this point is how ennagram and mbti work together. What is each of their purpose?
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  9. #39
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post

    I thought this was just me. You mean to tell me that its because I'm a 4w3 that I seek attention and affirmation? Well ok, whatever explains it.
    ISFP 4w3, creative psycho in disguise, yes? lol
    It's a very 3 trait. 3s want to be successful, praiseworthy, appreciated for their accomplishments. Even by the people they've trampled to get where they are.

    The only think I have trouble understanding at this point is how ennagram and mbti work together. What is each of their purpose?
    From what I see:
    Enneagram is based on your personal motivations and desires.
    MBTI is based on your ways of interacting with the world.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

    My thoughts on...
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    Socionics:
    MBTI:

    DISCLAIMER: If I offend you, I'm 99.9% sure it's unintentional. So be sure to let me know, m'kay? (And yes, an INFP would stick this in their signature, lol.)
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    It's a very 3 trait. 3s want to be successful, praiseworthy, appreciated for their accomplishments. Even by the people they've trampled to get where they are.


    From what I see:
    Enneagram is based on your personal motivations and desires.
    MBTI is based on your ways of interacting with the world.
    I do the attention/affirmation thing, too, very much so since the age of three as far as I can recall. I have no doubt in my mind that I'm a 4w3. marmalade.sunrise is an all-singing, all-dancing, "oh look at the A's I made on papers" one woman show until she slams the door in your face because she needs time alone.

    I swear that looks worse on paper than it actually is. I hope.

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