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Thread: 4w3 vs 4w5

  1. #21
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...:
    Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.

    4w5s and 4w3s have various advantages and disadvantages. That's just how it goes.

    Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.

    One of the main things that made me notice this is when I was talking to some other 9's. As a 9w8, I sort of wish that I could detach more and not be so aggressive in debates and when I get a strong opinion. I also wish I were as disciplined as a 9w1. 9w1s are very terrified of any sort of conflict, even a debate, so they detach and don't seem to get opinionated (or just don't promote their opinion in a disagreement). I envy that. 9w1s though seem to wish that they could do confrontations and promoting their side of things like a 9w8 would.

    Udog once told me when we were comparing our types (9w1 vs 9w8) that he wished he could engage in conflict as easily as I could. The thing with me, is if I have no desire to keep up a bond with someone I stop caring about keeping the peace. 9w1s just seem to always keep the peace. I sort of envy that as well, but what I do just seems to naturally happen.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  2. #22
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    I agree. I wish I were more successful and motivated and able to blend better. Sometimes I can play the chameleon, but at great personal cost to myself. I pretty much have two settings in public, aggressive or acquiescing. I usually choose aggressive because, well, other people are wrong and *obviously* not using their brains and no one else is saying anything....
    I've been told, more than once, that people would like me better if I learned how to use small talk. Pfftt! what do they know
    Still, looking inside myself I feel very dichotomous, and as I get older and learn to adapt to situations, sell myself, and be what other people want, I increasingly feel like a liar, and therefore unworthy of good things, since they were gotten un-authentically.

    But couldn't the social variants effect even the responses of 4w5s and 4w3s. Like, split them into even further subgroupings?
    -Brio

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  3. #23
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briochick View Post
    I agree. I wish I were more successful and motivated and able to blend better. Sometimes I can play the chameleon, but at great personal cost to myself. I pretty much have two settings in public, aggressive or acquiescing. I usually choose aggressive because, well, other people are wrong and *obviously* not using their brains and no one else is saying anything....
    I've been told, more than once, that people would like me better if I learned how to use small talk. Pfftt! what do they know
    Still, looking inside myself I feel very dichotomous, and as I get older and learn to adapt to situations, sell myself, and be what other people want, I increasingly feel like a liar, and therefore unworthy of good things, since they were gotten un-authentically.

    But couldn't the social variants effect even the responses of 4w5s and 4w3s. Like, split them into even further subgroupings?
    I agree, and I personally think social variants probably have higher effect on a person's behavior than their enneagram type. Being so/sx, I find myself more like to engage in this dichotomous behavior as I have that constant need to be appreciated and liked by the group I'm in. For example, an sp first, I think, would be more likely to behave as they naturally are, since they are not as out to impress. (Believe me, being in a relationship with an sp/sx makes this paaainfully clear.)
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  4. #24
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Some argue that the instinctual variants have more influence than the types. I do subscribe to the theory or wings, but when it comes to instinctual variants, to me that is where the Enneagram starts to get extremely complex, possibly beyond the point of practical usefulness. You've got 9 types (18 if you include wings), 9 levels of health for each type, so right there that's 162 possible combinations. Add in instinctual variants, and now you're up to 486 possible combinations. And that's before the somewhat controversial tri-types are added in. I'm not ruling out instinctual variants, however, simply because my SP variant resonates so deeply within me, in addition to the type 4 description.
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  5. #25
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    I think I'm finally fairly sure I'm an 4w5 due to the information here... now to go back to the instinct variant thread - I know I drew some conclusions from that also.
    Thanks

  6. #26
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Truth is a lot of 4w3s aren't as introspective and intellectual. It's not one of their main motivations, really. But as with all 4's, they think a lot about their emotions and why they feel them, so they are still pretty introspective.
    Wouldn't MBTI type affect this? I'm an INFJ...introspection is what I do for a living.

    Also something I've noticed within my study of enneagram and observations of people is that people seem to strive to be more like their other wing. Perhaps this is to achieve balance, and they are unconsciously doing this? The 4w3s that I know generally have some intellectual pursuits, and 4w5s have random streaks where they love getting attention and promoting themselves.
    I think I strive to be more like a [healthy] 3, although it isn't natural to me.

  7. #27
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    Some argue that the instinctual variants have more influence than the types. I do subscribe to the theory or wings, but when it comes to instinctual variants, to me that is where the Enneagram starts to get extremely complex, possibly beyond the point of practical usefulness. You've got 9 types (18 if you include wings), 9 levels of health for each type, so right there that's 162 possible combinations. Add in instinctual variants, and now you're up to 486 possible combinations. And that's before the somewhat controversial tri-types are added in. I'm not ruling out instinctual variants, however, simply because my SP variant resonates so deeply within me, in addition to the type 4 description.
    Haha, no I get you. It's like how socionics is such a huge monster that it's mindboggling to try and learn it all. Wouldn't want that happening to enneagram.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I did some self-study of the Enneagram and it does seem I am 4w3 but everyone I speak to that knows about Enneagram, online and offline, says they don't think I am, and instead 4w5 or 5w4. These are people who know way more about Enneagram than I do, so I wonder. I feel strongly 3, 4, and 5, so maybe I have a balanced wing.

    Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...

    I do relate to this part very much:
    i personally think 5w4 or 4w5 makes very much sense for you. you just don't seem to be nearly as flippant as 4w3s, much more focused. when we are funny, it's not a wild and flailing funny, but a focused dry humor.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I always test 4w5 and I relate to both 4 and 5 profiles (and sometimes test 5), but from BlackCat's description above it makes me question if I am more 4w3.

    I relate to this:
    their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style.

    And I feel a huge sense of dichotomy in myself.

    However, I do not relate to 3 descriptions on their own in the slightest, and I test pretty low on 3....
    4w3s just look like naturals. they seem effortless. a bit haphazard. you seem carefully constructed and put together, like knowledge and mastery is very important to you, and more relevant for you than 4w3. i think 4w5 is just way more tied down to their ideas about the world, and they spend far more time refining these ideas until they're fucking perfect, whereas 4w3 is way more fake it til you make it.

    4w3 looseness and lightness is enviable, i agree. i love 4w3 entp and enfp writers somewhat jealously. i feel so heavy, tight, somber, and sterile sometimes in comparison. yet we give their stylistics weight, purpose, depth, etc. intensely concentrating them, finishing them, completing them, synthesizing them, etc.

    4w5s are the type that hold on to, revel in, fall in love/identify with their own contradictions. they articulate them more perfectly than any other type. they create the most honest internal record of the self, or the most honest autobiographical account of the self. 4w3s want to, but posture (see: walt whitman) and rely on stylistics to hold them together rather than on 5 rigor, accurate self-knowledge, and strict standards for internal coherency. but their style!
    Likes small.wonder liked this post

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I really wish the 4w5 descriptions would not be so gloomy in the outcome.

  10. #30
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i personally think 5w4 or 4w5 makes very much sense for you. you just don't seem to be nearly as flippant as 4w3s, much more focused. when we are funny, it's not a wild and flailing funny, but a focused dry humor... 4w3 looseness and lightness is enviable, i agree.
    Oh, for sure I'm not flippant in the least. In "normal" mode, my gravity is nearly tangible; I'm serious to a near fault. If 4w3 is characterized by breeziness, I doubt I am one.

    And I do specialize in dry humor. But my mother is English, so I learned from the best.

    But then we would have to also consider instinctual variants, right? Whatever my type is, I'm absolutely positive I am sx/sp variant. And they aren't exactly lightweights. And then MBTI; a lot of 4w3 seem to be [N]FPs, INFJ might put a very different spin on it.

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