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Thread: 4w3 vs 4w5

  1. #101
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Huh, maybe I'm not as 3 as I thought. I don't really get jealous if people are better than me at stuff, well not for most things anyways :P

    I'm having trouble distinguishing the 1 part of my tritype and potentially having a 5 wing. I'll explain. I do want to be good at everything, and I try to strive for that ideal. Intelligence and knowledge are parts of that so obviously I'm going to try to improve myself in that respect. Now, is that knowledge/intelligence crazing part of me really part of that 1, or do I have neutral wings? Maybe I'm more 5 than I thought. How can I tell?
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  2. #102
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Huh, maybe I'm not as 3 as I thought. I don't really get jealous if people are better than me at stuff, well not for most things anyways :P

    I'm having trouble distinguishing the 1 part of my tritype and potentially having a 5 wing. I'll explain. I do want to be good at everything, and I try to strive for that ideal. Intelligence and knowledge are parts of that so obviously I'm going to try to improve myself in that respect. Now, is that knowledge/intelligence crazing part of me really part of that 1, or do I have neutral wings? Maybe I'm more 5 than I thought. How can I tell?
    The best way to determine if you're a 5 or 3 wing. See if you can relate to the five description more than the three description. I know that 4w5 are more reserved and withdraw a lot.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
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  3. #103
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Huh, maybe I'm not as 3 as I thought. I don't really get jealous if people are better than me at stuff, well not for most things anyways :P

    I'm having trouble distinguishing the 1 part of my tritype and potentially having a 5 wing. I'll explain. I do want to be good at everything, and I try to strive for that ideal. Intelligence and knowledge are parts of that so obviously I'm going to try to improve myself in that respect. Now, is that knowledge/intelligence crazing part of me really part of that 1, or do I have neutral wings? Maybe I'm more 5 than I thought. How can I tell?
    The best way to determine if you're a 5 or 3 wing. See if you can relate to the five description more than the three description. I know that 4w5 are more reserved and withdraw a lot.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  4. #104
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    but from BlackCat's description above it makes me question if I am more 4w3.


    However, I do not relate to 3 descriptions on their own in the slightest, and I test pretty low on 3....
    ditto...
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #105
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I know. Its so harsh and depressing, especially when its true. This statement makes me want to open up my wrists:

    In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality.



    But honestly, the MAJOR problem I have with enneagram typing is just how negative it is. Its like they take the most unhealthy, depressed, neurotic, nutso version of any given type and then use their behaviour to rake everyone else across the coals. Yeah, a lot of what is said may be true but only at my darkest, most extreme moments - its not really reflective of my day to day behaviour. And I refuse to believe that my negative aspects are more defining of my personality than my positive ones - but thats what enneagram tries to tell me.
    agreed! it's not even reflective of me in recent years. makes me question if i'm even a 4. but i'm sure i am. just a much healthier level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's a really interesting observation. It makes sense because its truly the other side of yourself. Its something close enough to your experience that you can easily comprehend the idea of it but is just out of reach. I think it is true for me. I really aspire to those 3 behavioural traits: confidence, assertiveness, poise, gregariousness and charisma. When socializing, I often unconsciously try to feign these qualities, with mixed success (because I'm crap at it). I'm also attracted to those qualities in theory but in reality, they only truly appeal if they come with a '4-like' edge (ie. if they are 4w3 or 3w4). For example, assertiveness is only appealing to me if it comes with sensitivity; confidence with humility etc.
    it would explain why unique image seekers AND intellectual types stand out to me. i'm right between the two.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  6. #106
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    does anyone have any good links on healthy type 4's and wings?

    this:"Their (4w5) persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people." and this:"and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite." about the 4w3 sounds like me. but i suppose not much else.

    also, i'm a bit... aggravated when i meet real life 4's. i suppose because of the saying that it's only when you have the same flaws can you see them in others... thing.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  7. #107
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    From an enneagram profile that I don't own...

    4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

    4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

    Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
    Hello, me


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm a 4w3, too. So can I get in on these hugs?

    I relate to having "different personalities." I've literally created dramatic presentations of a stage self - which is an extension of my real self, not a completely make-believe character, so is a bit different than playing a role in someone else's play - for work I've done. Thinking about that makes me question if Eminem is a 4w3...I know Boy George is.


    I have two sides to me, for sure. I'm also a Gemini, which may explain that as well...
    I do this too, always have.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i know you do, i see this for what it is. 4w3s are so patently "wandering" in spirit, they are always looking for the next thing, gotta stay fresh. it's always ahead of the curve, but never risking a synthesis that is too dangerous (think beck). enp 4w3s are a little more out there, so they do some crazier shit, but it's generally less pertinent NOW and more relevant for the future (think walt whitman). whereas beck, a probable intp 4w3, is abreast of the trends. a lot of the 4w3s will critique the trends or poke fun at them, but still rely heavily upon them in their own articulation/self-formulation. their way of avoiding this problem is to maintain the image of pure bricolage, bits and pieces and nothing more. avoiding the rigor that might trap you in a discourse in a specific lasting way, that might impact you more completely and make you rely on another way/form of creating your own authentic, unique, individual, stylized fresh position.

    it creates an image of effortlessness bc it relies on image-control and situational jabs, disarming methods, etc to feel out its own position. whereas a 4w5 will take something, invest heavily in it, and complete a synthesis of it and itself. they both respond in different ways, but are both extremely useful. 4w3 has more immediate relevance, 4w5 takes a while to work its way into the culture, and is generally less naturally involved. requires far more commitment to get into it, etc.

    4w3s have many many excellent leadership qualities. they absorb many important things from others, take good pieces, and are not so self-consciously absorbed with their own self-image. they let others do that for them, as long as they keep their internal/external pressure in-tact. they're amazing marketers and great at winning over others for a cause.

    the haphazard bit is just that they know how to avoid situations that will trap them, they have a great nose for that. so they're very skilled at reading situations and working it to get what they want. but they still don't focus on critical rigor in a similar way. that kind of continued engagement is threatening to their identities. balancing this is one of the key life problems for 4w3s.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    That's the whole "image" thing that 4w3s have: they care more about how they're presented to other people than how they're presented to themselves. At the same time, their identity remains highly important, and as much as they'd like to, it's difficult for a 4w3 to act untrue to themselves for attention. Which invites plenty of inner conflict.

    Well, you're right: 4s ARE dark in general. But a 4w3 is more likely to gloss over their bad things to portray them as good things to other people. A 4w5 would be more likely to sort through them and get in the icky gray areas to puzzle through them all. 4w3s keep their private struggles private. 4w5s are like, hey this is me and if you don't like it sucks for you because I'm me and that's what you get. Really, just read the two profiles of the 3s and the 5s.
    YES.

    How sweet to find another "yous" in an internet forum

  8. #108
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    I'm still mulling it over. I realize I SEEM like a 4w3, but my deeper struggles and more endemic patterns strike me as 4w5. I don't know - there are strong cases for both.

    The difference isn't that obvious, especially as an ENFP.
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  9. #109
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    The descriptions and texts about 4s definitely ring as my type in all those good and bad ways, but then I feel so different from the other people who relate to 4 as well. Could be sx-last being around a lot of sx dominants. Or could just be a symptom of type.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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  10. #110
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    The descriptions and texts about 4s definitely ring as my type in all those good and bad ways, but then I feel so different from the other people who relate to 4 as well. Could be sx-last being around a lot of sx dominants. Or could just be a symptom of type.
    I've known three people who I'm sure were sx dom 4's in my life, and they were the reason I never considered being a 4 earlier. Sexual 4's are easier to spot than sp/so ones, at least for me, and so very different.

    Or this, we 4's are so unique we can't identify with anyone
    Likes Punderstorm liked this post

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