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[Type 5] 5w4 mb types

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
intp, intj, and infj in this order? what about 5w4 infps? what makes them tick, how do they work, etc?

how are 5w4s different? what's the difference between 5w4 and 5w6 intps and 5w4 and 5w6 intjs?

famous ones? commonalities? differences? interests? particularities? counterphobic tendencies? vs 4w5? other favorite enneagram types? instinctual sub-types?

i'm 5w4 infj sx/sp. i like the writers milan kundera and tom wolfe. also donald barthelme (what type is he?) and vladimir nabokov (who seems 5w4). dostoeyevsky, obviously, and i wonder what borges is. i think rainer marie rilke is an infj 5w4, as are william blake and emily dickinson. nietzsche and probably martin heidegger. i'm guessing david lynch, thom yorke, david byrne, possibly trent reznor, possibly tom waits, wim wenders, probably kieslowski, etc. not sure about comedians. probably captain beefheart, james joyce, stephin merritt of the magnetic fields, brian wilson, and i think 5w4 makes more sense for kafka than 4w5. stanley kubrick?

i like 7w6 enneagram types quite a bit, they open me up and draw me out. i do feel somewhat counterphobic, which creates a bit or neurotic thinking.
 

The Outsider

New member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
2,418
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
A while ago I favored 5w4. I have never truly decided on my type though, and I am currently more confused than ever .
 

Sarcasticus

Circus Maximus
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
I'm a 5w4. In general terms I think the 4 wing adds an emotional and aesthetic sensitivity. By contrast, 5w6s seem to be very strictly logical types that display almost no emotion and seem to be more about self-preservation. Whereas 5w4s are more iconoclastic.
 

Grungemouse

Widdles in your cream.
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
577
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
I think I'm a 5w4. It makes sense, being an INTP who is doing English & creative writing as a major.

I'm an NT who likes writing poetry. There; I said it.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm a 5w4. In general terms I think the 4 wing adds an emotional and aesthetic sensitivity. By contrast, 5w6s seem to be very strictly logical types that display almost no emotion and seem to be more about self-preservation. Whereas 5w4s are more iconoclastic.

for some reason i thought you were a 3w4. have you always been 5w4? how does that work with entp?

i'm not sure i am willing to accept this definition of 5w4 vs 5w6. 6 can be phobic, counterphobic, or prussian (whatever that means). i think 6 expression is hugely varied. especially if it actually includes intjs, intps, infjs, isfjs, istjs, and 6w7 enfps and entps. 5w6 would accept circumstances and focus more on protecting and defending against future threats. sp 5w6 would seem very disengaged from the world of people, depending on what relationship to their w6 they'd have. 5w6 social would probably be more social than 5w4 sp/sx. i'm not sure what 5w4 so/sx is like. plus variations between intps, or between intjs would make a wide-ranging difference as well (i don't think you have 5w6 infjs or infps). my impression is that 6 can be far less distanced from feeling than 5, which overexpresses thoguht to create distance and compensate and transform emotional fears into thought. whereas 6 is a weird point in the enneagram that experiences total intersection of most categories, experiences extremes of both directions. 5w4 is more feely only in the sense that it is far more self-aware. 4ness = self-awareness, not emotiveness. but self-awareness is often uncomfortable and creates huge growing pains, feelings of inadequacy, comparison of all points of weakness to others, envy, and occasional bouts of depression (self-awareness creates a big ball of bloatedness that can be exhausting to carry around sometimes!). yet it doesn't HAVE to be expressed in F holism. think of all the ntp 3w4s, who just create a huge mass of self-story/mythology about themselves, stories of their complexity, can't reconcile them into a coherent overarching identity, and are protective of the stories other people know about them as a result of their 3 image-control/need to be seen well in the eyes of others/self-presentation.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Well I don't know enough about enneagram to answer most of the questions in the OP.

I sense large differences between myself and the enneagram 4's - based on my childhood experiences as well as how I am today, in comparison - I'm simply not emotive at all, and my observational and analytical side definitely existed and was dominant before any internal exploration took place. As a child I did virtually no internal exploration - no analysis of myself and who I was, little awareness of my emotions - I was purely observational, collecting 'data', as it were, of the people around me and how everything worked...mostly related to interactions and people/personality, however, which I suppose is more of the NF twist of enneagram 5 and not so much the T 5's.

Novelists? Hmm, I love Dostoevsky, as well as Dickens and Tolstoy. Kundera was definitely enjoyable, and although I've only read 'Lolita' by Nabakov, I loved it. I also like many other English novelists - George Eliot, W. Somerset Maugham, Thomas Hardy. Others - Henry James, Salmon Rushdie, Steinbeck.....oh, and I LOVE sci-fi (Asimov, Clarke, Anderson, Herbert, Simmons, Banks...) and fantasy. I know many/most of these are not enneagram 5's, however; just listing what I like. :smile:
 

Sarcasticus

Circus Maximus
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
for some reason i thought you were a 3w4. have you always been 5w4? how does that work with entp?

I've been trending from I to E for the last several years. I also test high on 7 in enneagram but 5 still comes out slightly higher and feels like "me" (5w4 sx/so to be exact).

i'm not sure i am willing to accept this definition of 5w4 vs 5w6.

I was speaking in relative terms and leaving the instinctual subtypes out of the mix for simplicity. After all even a 5w4 can vary quite a bit depending on the instinctual subtypes applied to it (sx, sp, so). I know a few at work and am surprised we are the same type as I am far more social and outgoing.

Also the mapping of Enneagram to MBTI is pretty inexact to say the least. Mostly you see INTJ = 5w6 and INTP = 5w4 but there are exceptions (and we are both examples of that).
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Also the mapping of Enneagram to MBTI is pretty inexact to say the least. Mostly you see INTJ = 5w6 and INTP = 5w4 but there are exceptions (and we are both examples of that).

i'd still expect to find some sort of pattern and recognize some basic relationships that make it make sense. i'm a 5w4 and it makes sense bc i was more in line with Ti pursuits, knowledge-gathering, etc, when i was younger than i was in developing any assertiveness whatsoever with Fe. Fe felt like an extremely/hyper-sensitive one-way street.

i didn't start going thru my 4 phase until i was 19 when i started writing. as an infj, 5w4 makes me harder-edged than other infjs. i feel less give and take and more immediate NO, more resistance, more aggression, etc. this is partly sx/sp, but it's also that growing up i was focused on others as wrong more than on myself.
 

Ulaes

loopy
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
850
MBTI Type
crak
Enneagram
sax
5w4 are more individualistic than 5w6, stubbornly so, which makes them more isolated. 5w4s are also more fanatasy oriented.
5w6 intps tend to be the higher achievers and are more "normal" and probably aren't as shy as 5w4.
thats about all i [think i] know, sorry.
 

Sarcasticus

Circus Maximus
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
i didn't start going thru my 4 phase until i was 19 when i started writing. as an infj, 5w4 makes me harder-edged than other infjs. i feel less give and take and more immediate NO, more resistance, more aggression, etc. this is partly sx/sp, but it's also that growing up i was focused on others as wrong more than on myself.

Are your 5 and 4 scores pretty close? I mean, are you close to being a 4w5?
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Are your 5 and 4 scores pretty close? I mean, are you close to being a 4w5?

58/42. the more i lean towards 4, the less i have my shit worked out and the more crazy and unhappy i become (4 takes a lot of practice, you know!).
 

Sarcasticus

Circus Maximus
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
58/42. the more i lean towards 4, the less i have my shit worked out and the more crazy and unhappy i become (4 takes a lot of practice, you know!).

I guess so. My four wing isn't as strong as yours. I have had enough trouble just being a 5. Seems like 5 & 4 are the types that fit into society's expectations the least.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I guess so. My four wing isn't as strong as yours. I have had enough trouble just being a 5. Seems like 5 & 4 are the types that fit into society's expectations the least.

the 5s i know spend all day reading. i spend less time than most, but i spend an equal amount of time thinking/processing. in what ways do you think 5s don't fit into society's expectations? i think my w4 is what fucks me up far more than my 5ness. expertise is easy. self-integration, self-identity, uniqueness, and a truly individual path are far more difficult judge+jury(s).

5 has difficulty with relationships. the constant push-pull, the inability to give freely, the fear and anxiety of being left behind/discarded, the miserliness, etc. i don't think of these as social expectations so much as i think of them as character flaws. but understandably so, for 5s also seem too in love with knowledge for the sake of knowledge and will pretty much not-stop collecting it even when it is to their detriment, understanding the entire history of the universe is an unavoidable inescapable desire.

what do you struggle with about 5ness? do you relate to the w4?
 

Gerbah

New member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
433
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w4
what do you struggle with about 5ness? do you relate to the w4?

I'm a 5w4. I'm not so sure what the stacking of my instincts are though. For a 5, I actually don't have a lot of trouble with relationships as long as they are close, intimate ones where I can be very open. I enjoy that freedom so I can give/take. I don't often meet people I can be that way with though so that is a problem and something that makes me sad.

I have more problems with being easy-going and light in a more widespread social way. I can only naturally be like that if the people in the group are a very particular way but I very rarely am in such situations, and I find it hard to adapt and fit into a lot of external situations.

My w4 is more my impractical dreamy side. I can also relate to the self-identity thing, and it was an issue that used to stress me out a lot until I managed to find satisfactory answers and peace with it in my mid-20s. I am still always getting to know myself though and always wondering what more there is to know about myself, but it feels more of an enjoyable journey now.

I find that a problem with the w4 was that its needs can be very opposed to the 5's needs. When I was younger I made decisions that supported the w4 more, but I was unhappy and not successful. Plus I was feeling the pull of the 5. Then I made big changes in my life and made decisions that supported the 5 more, and was more satisfied and successful. I still satisfy my w4 but in a more appropriate way for me in balance with the 5, now that I'm older and have a bit more self-awareness.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
intp, intj, and infj in this order? what about 5w4 infps? what makes them tick, how do they work, etc?

how are 5w4s different? what's the difference between 5w4 and 5w6 intps and 5w4 and 5w6 intjs?

famous ones? commonalities? differences? interests? particularities? counterphobic tendencies? vs 4w5? other favorite enneagram types? instinctual sub-types?

i'm 5w4 infj sx/sp. i like the writers milan kundera and tom wolfe. also donald barthelme (what type is he?) and vladimir nabokov (who seems 5w4). dostoeyevsky, obviously, and i wonder what borges is. i think rainer marie rilke is an infj 5w4, as are william blake and emily dickinson. nietzsche and probably martin heidegger. i'm guessing david lynch, thom yorke, david byrne, possibly trent reznor, possibly tom waits, wim wenders, probably kieslowski, etc. not sure about comedians. probably captain beefheart, james joyce, stephin merritt of the magnetic fields, brian wilson, and i think 5w4 makes more sense for kafka than 4w5. stanley kubrick?

i like 7w6 enneagram types quite a bit, they open me up and draw me out. i do feel somewhat counterphobic, which creates a bit or neurotic thinking.
You found it out.
Jolly good.
I say an expert job :)
 

Sarcasticus

Circus Maximus
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
in what ways do you think 5s don't fit into society's expectations?

Well I think 5w4s are prone to be iconoclastic and flaunt convention, dislike rules for the sake of rules, tend to want to rock the boat and dislike doing something "because that's the way it's always been done". Add to that the tendency to be loners with poor social skills, the quietness misinterpreted often as haughty aloofness or looking down on others. And so on.

what do you struggle with about 5ness? do you relate to the w4?

Oh the usual issues. I used to struggle with not fitting in when I was in grade school, but at the same time not really wanting to fit in-- and follow the lead of someone I thought was kind of a dumbass anyway-- just for the sake of being more popular.

I do relate to the 4 wing. The kind of romantic/tragic/dark/pathos typified by Poe and others used to appeal to me very strongly when I was a teenager. Still does to some extent. I've always had a well-developed aesthetic sense and have been equally at home in humanities/lit classses as science/math.

How about you?
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
I'm 5w4 sp/sx. I'm not sure that I personally know any INTJs of other E types, so I can't provide any comparisons.

For authors, I think H.P. Lovecraft could easily be 5w4 (he's also one of my favorites :)).


I'm a 5w4. I'm not so sure what the stacking of my instincts are though. For a 5, I actually don't have a lot of trouble with relationships as long as they are close, intimate ones where I can be very open. I enjoy that freedom so I can give/take. I don't often meet people I can be that way with though so that is a problem and something that makes me sad.

I have more problems with being easy-going and light in a more widespread social way. I can only naturally be like that if the people in the group are a very particular way but I very rarely am in such situations, and I find it hard to adapt and fit into a lot of external situations.

Well you definitely sound like you're rocking sx :) Maybe sx/sp?
 

Gerbah

New member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
433
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Well you definitely sound like you're rocking sx :) Maybe sx/sp?

I'm pretty new to the Enneagram, so I'm not very confident yet about typing myself. First I thought I must be sx/sp but in the book I'm reading at the moment I read a description of a sx 5 and I don't really relate to some of those issues, e.g. "The passion of avarice manifests here as a holding back of his affection for fear of being rejected and a holding on to his love object once he has set his sights on her". Maybe this can be the case for male sx 5s? When it came to romantic possibilities I've actually found that as a 5 woman, being withdrawn so that the man has to hunt you down has actually been a good thing for me, attracting very confident types. The sx thing is more a problem in friendships because I seek very close friendships and the older I get, I find this gets more and more difficult, and though I try to enjoy light acquaintances and enjoy the time on a lighter level, in truth, I really don't, although I wish I could because I don't like to be boring or make other people feel bad. :( Anyway, soc must be at the bottom of my stacking.
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
I'm pretty new to the Enneagram, so I'm not very confident yet about typing myself. First I thought I must be sx/sp but in the book I'm reading at the moment I read a description of a sx 5 and I don't really relate to some of those issues, e.g. "The passion of avarice manifests here as a holding back of his affection for fear of being rejected and a holding on to his love object once he has set his sights on her". Maybe this can be the case for male sx 5s? When it came to romantic possibilities I've actually found that as a 5 woman, being withdrawn so that the man has to hunt you down has actually been a good thing for me, attracting very confident types. The sx thing is more a problem in friendships because I seek very close friendships and the older I get, I find this gets more and more difficult, and though I try to enjoy light acquaintances and enjoy the time on a lighter level, in truth, I really don't, although I wish I could because I don't like to be boring or make other people feel bad. :( Anyway, soc must be at the bottom of my stacking.

Yeah, and it seems that the instinct descriptions are really very inconsistent. I think very few authors are able to successfully predict what forms the instincts take. In my opinion they can manifest in so many different ways that the only effective way to apply them is to get to the underlying idea of the instinct.

I like some of the descriptions that were posted in this thread though: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/24015-sp-sx-vs-sx-sp.html

And I agree, being a female 5 with sp isn't so bad, a lot of guys will put forth a little effort to chase you down. Most girls aren't willing to pursue so aggressively.
 
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