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[Traditional Enneagram] INFJs 4s are a lot different to Fi dom 4s?

thoughtlost

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First of all, I've been in a lot of physical pain this week - if my tone is or was curmudgeonly, it's more about that than anything else.

That being said, I didn't really want to go on a point-by-point analysis of everything I disagreed with (about the first bunch of posts) because it's actually already been said in past discussions in this forum, ad nauseum. It's not just my experience that doesn't jive with the usual Fe conceptions - this discussion has happened many times, and I've lost all motivation to keep articulating why aspects of it don't make sense. But I do feel compelled to at least state, for the record, where some Fe/Fi distinctions are posted that run contrary to my experience. (Because if no opposition is stated at all, then incorrect distinctions can congeal and become 'common knowledge').

I understand. I have been here while these debates went on. I agree that it's not useful to discuss point for point what's wrong with it. I do agree; this isn't what Fe is at the core, especially as I am basing my understanding on one individual. For me, it's one of those things that are true but not the complete "truth", if personality theory can ever really be true.

I didn't think your tone was curmudgeonly. Plus, I was expecting people to disagree (again, I've been here for the debates).
 

OrangeAppled

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You are always so eloquent [MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION]. I have a tendency to blurt my thoughts out without fine tuning the language or even the concept. I think you describe true Fi and Fe better than I do at times. And you are right about the constant comparisons to others and using them as a reference point for oneself for Fe 4s.

But I do feel confused about one thing: Are Fi dom/aux really that unaware of the moods of others, or the opinions others have of them? Can they really spend time with a group of people and not gather clues about the impressions others are forming of them? Or the feelings unmentioned but still shown subtly? (maybe the latter is Ni)

Nope. Because those stereotypes about Fi are false. Fi is no more about the self than any other introverted function.
Introverted Feeling may somewhat be about the internal experience of humans, but it’s all people, not just the self.

The way I put this is that Fe focuses more on the space between people and Fi on the space within people. For example, Fi types are often highly aware of when someone is upset, especially when they are trying to hide it. Noting the genuine emotion inside someone vs a social mask is something FPs do a lot.

I often can tell if people like or dislike me. FPs complain about people being fake for this reason. We note the discrepancy between fake politeness and genuine affection.

Compared to Thinking types, I am aware of dynamics between people, but probably not as much as FJs. I do struggle with feeling powerless to affect these dynamics for some reason, but often I simply am not interested. The not interested part is often why I may not bother to figure it out or respond with any caring about what people think of me. I’m not too interested in making people like me, because I think that’s an excercise in futility. It’s common for FPs to feel people should just like them for who they are, not because they please people or make them like them via some contrived behavior.

Also feeling is not emotion. Obliviousness in Fi is more about social protocol or “feeling rules” than it is about emotion. Emotion is something I’m highly aware of, but more often than not, what I pick up on doesn’t match the little social games people want to play and that’s where I opt out or get too confused. It’s the values or principles they operate off of that can go over my head. I would say FPs are often so in tune with GENUINE emotional states but also can be so naive about the rules surrounding interactions that they end up offending people by being too, well, honest or they get taken advantage of. Even though enneagram 9 IxFPs can have something of a pseudo Fe flavor where they merge more with an emotional atmosphere and seem to grasp social protocol a bit better, I still notice a kind of childlike naïveté in them along these lines, and I notice they don’t play the games much either. As an FP you see the games, but you have difficulty understanding the point of it and it may even feel beneath you to operate that way.

Stating again for emphasis: I am highly aware of people’s inner emotional states and the emotional atmosphere, aware to the point where the sensitivity can be crippling and basically freeze me. One difference is I don’t take it on as my own. I’m always aware of my own emotions as separate from those around me. It doesn’t mean I am not affected by it, as I’m easily agitated by negative emotional environments, but I don’t take on the emotion around me, rather I respond to it with my own. A typical response is withdrawal to resist being affected, and this often means leaving or trying to block it out.
 

Forever

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] that was incredible. Thank you. Putting the stereotype Fi as obtuse and totally unaware to sham. People naught to shame those like that. Knowing my many FP’s, I very know well they have that empathy. Otherwise how could an Fi type devotion?

Fi types are still F types.

I wish I might’ve heard this sooner.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Nope. Because those stereotypes about Fi are false. Fi is no more about the self than any other introverted function.
Introverted Feeling may somewhat be about the internal experience of humans, but it’s all people, not just the self.

The way I put this is that Fe focuses more on the space between people and Fi on the space within people. For example, Fi types are often highly aware of when someone is upset, especially when they are trying to hide it. Noting the genuine emotion inside someone vs a social mask is something FPs do a lot.

I often can tell if people like or dislike me. FPs complain about people being fake for this reason. We note the discrepancy between fake politeness and genuine affection.

Compared to Thinking types, I am aware of dynamics between people, but probably not as much as FJs. I do struggle with feeling powerless to affect these dynamics for some reason, but often I simply am not interested. The not interested part is often why I may not bother to figure it out or respond with any caring about what people think of me. I’m not too interested in making people like me, because I think that’s an excercise in futility. It’s common for FPs to feel people should just like them for who they are, not because they please people or make them like them via some contrived behavior.

Also feeling is not emotion. Obliviousness in Fi is more about social protocol or “feeling rules” than it is about emotion. Emotion is something I’m highly aware of, but more often than not, what I pick up on doesn’t match the little social games people want to play and that’s where I opt out or get too confused. It’s the values or principles they operate off of that can go over my head. I would say FPs are often so in tune with GENUINE emotional states but also can be so naive about the rules surrounding interactions that they end up offending people by being too, well, honest or they get taken advantage of. Even though enneagram 9 IxFPs can have something of a pseudo Fe flavor where they merge more with an emotional atmosphere and seem to grasp social protocol a bit better, I still notice a kind of childlike naïveté in them along these lines, and I notice they don’t play the games much either. As an FP you see the games, but you have difficulty understanding the point of it and it may even feel beneath you to operate that way.

Stating again for emphasis: I am highly aware of people’s inner emotional states and the emotional atmosphere, aware to the point where the sensitivity can be crippling and basically freeze me. One difference is I don’t take it on as my own. I’m always aware of my own emotions as separate from those around me. It doesn’t mean I am not affected by it, as I’m easily agitated by negative emotional environments, but I don’t take on the emotion around me, rather I respond to it with my own. A typical response is withdrawal to resist being affected, and this often means leaving or trying to block it out.

By this description, I would call myself a true Fi user. Anytime I use Fe to follow what's expected, I low-key hate myself.
 

OrangeAppled

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By this description, I would call myself a true Fi user. Anytime I use Fe to follow what's expected, I low-key hate myself.

Extroverted feeling is not automatically conforming to external expectations or values. It’s the difference on where the feeling valuations are focused.
Extroverted feeling like extroverted thinking is basically focused on ordering reality because that’s what rational functions do and these are outer focused. Emotions for Fe types are primarily to be communicated to achieve a result.
That result is not necessarily harmony or conformity. They can use it to cause disharmony or to set themselves apart. They can and do use it to assert their own needs. Because the focus is on affecting the environment (as well as being susceptible to affect), then it makes sense that they operate with a common emotional language. This is what can confuse a Fi type. Fi types can pick up on nuances of emotion easily, but it doesn’t fit the often more simplistic meaning a person is overtly displaying. We really often just don’t know what to do with that information. Add Ne to it and you have decision paralysis.

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] ‘s experience of not being able to detect flirting well is not about emotion at all....that’s about the meaning assigned to behaviors. That post is a nice explanation of the 9 experience, but I notice all disconnect described is really about the labels given to emotions and behaviors, not in ability to sense the emotion itself. As is common with Fi when articulated well, many people likely can relate to that sentiment. A lot of people regardless of type are stumped by flirting and unsure how to interpret it.

However, Fe tends to view this meaning as objectively determined - because the purpose is to communicate and influence, which requires agreed upon terms. Many types struggle with this is in various ways, even some FJs (although I notice their real issue is knowing but not agreeing with or wanting to adjust). For IxFPs, it’s not uncommon for us to articulate inner human experiences that everyone goes through but no one talks about that much. It’s interesting how over time it can become a cliche. But I would expect anyone of any type to find themselves relating well to certain Fi expressions as Fi is ultimately not about the self but the inner human condition. A lot of this mutual understanding depends on the maturity of the IxFP and the other person.

Introverted Feeling, like introverted thinking, is primarily focused on refining an internal system of criteria, far more than applying that criteria to affect reality. In this case it’s the criteria for “meaning”, and so they primarily approach emotion as something to understand and interpret, and they absorb it or contain it without seeming to do anything with it. What they are really doing is perfecting their understanding. Since it’s pretty much always “under construction”, they only express stuff directly when very necessary. They may also communicate their insights into “what things mean in the human condition” indirectly, and they certainly influence people this way. IMO, it’s not uncommon for these ideas to eventually go “mainstream”, and suddenly they are as much Fe protocol as they were once misunderstood expressions of an inner experience never well articulated before.

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but I notice there is a particularly complementary relationship with ENFJs and INFPs where the ENFJ champions and mainstreams the Fi types inner experience (because as it turns out, it’s actually typically human). I think ENFPs and INFJs report something similar when it comes to iNtuition.

As I wrote in a past post, this is complicated when dealing with auxiliary functions, because for IxFJs, Fe is in service of the Pi ego. Fi in ExFPs can seem to have much in common with ExFJs for a similar reason.

So I thoroughly agree that an INFJ 4 will often display or seem to use mentality that people associate with Fi, but that’s because those traits aren’t really definitive of Fi or exclusive to it. That’s more the result of an introvert who prefers feeling and is an enneagram 4. When you factor in that Ni is very concerned with the inner nature of things or hidden dynamics / forces, especially within people, then there’s tons of overlap in their mentality with INFP 4s.

For all practical purposes, it’s hard to distinguish an INFP and INFJ when both are enneagram 4. I can usually tell in person rather easily, but it’s difficult to describe with intellectual terms. I think noting IxxP vs IxxJ mentality and behavioral patterns is the easiest way and it’s what made MBTI rather insightful as to deterring type, even if it has its flaws and can be inconsistent as a typing tool.

I have a concept for a function model that borrows a bit from socionics and Lenore Thompson that I think makes a lot more sense than the “tandem theory” currently popular on the internet (ie someone is “on the Fe/Ti axis”). I don’t think socionics is correct in how each function is experienced internally or how it appears, but I think the concept of what is conscious or unconscious is right. So an INFJ (NiFe in MBTI) would have conscious “access” to Fi as a mentality but often experiences it simply as a narrower version of Fe and somewhat superfluous. That’s often how I see IxFJs describing Fi. It’s like “whatever you can do, I can do better!” . Frankly, as an NP, that’s kind of how I see Ni. I know it’s deeper than Ne, but it just doesn’t seem to offer more on the surface and my preference for Ne thinking makes it seem sort of unnecessary.

 

Thelema

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I am an INFJ, and I may be a 4. Not sure yet. But anyway.

Fe is not about harmony. It never was about harmony. It is one of the biggest misunderstandings in Jungian Typology.

Socionics calls Fe "dynamic", and I like to apply this concept to Jungian functions, too. Fe is transitory. Let's say you are pissed off. Very pissed off. You express this dynamic emotional state, which is Fe. But this emotional state doesn't last. It goes away. Fe can be any kind of outer expression. It can create any kind of emotional atmosphere, but it never lasts. Fi is actually more serious, and inner oriented. You can't "see" easily the feelings of a Fi user. They don't experience their feelings in terms of outer emotional expression. Fi users seem to experience more stable feelings, and hence why many of them think the Fe expressions are "fake".

So I think INFJ 4 can use Fe in their creative expression. Metaphors, poetry, art, whatever. Fe is contagious.
 

Peter Deadpan

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] - No apologies, it's always a pleasure to read your insights. I suppose I get confused because of the frequency of which I test as an INFP, even on function tests. I also don't feel like I've ever been in the grip of Se, which seems odd given the amount of stress I've experienced in life. I've been looking at the loops for clarity, and that hasn't helped much because they both seem plausible. The only thing I can do is research deeper and gain a better understanding of the functions (I've never felt that MBTI was my preferred system of typing, I much prefer Enneagram, but even that frustrates me at times).

Still, I can't help but feel that I'm not really like anyone else pattern/behavior wise, which is just an overly individualistic POV that should be discarded. (But really? Who here is THAT much like me? All the NFJs Fe better than I do, and all the NFPs Ne better than I do).
 

thoughtlost

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A lot of people regardless of type are stumped by flirting and unsure how to interpret it.

However, Fe tends to view this meaning as objectively determined - because the purpose is to communicate and influence, which requires agreed upon terms. Many types struggle with this is in various ways, even some FJs (although I notice their real issue is knowing but not agreeing with or wanting to adjust). For IxFPs, it’s not uncommon for us to articulate inner human experiences that everyone goes through but no one talks about that much. It’s interesting how over time it can become a cliche. But I would expect anyone of any type to find themselves relating well to certain Fi expressions as Fi is ultimately not about the self but the inner human condition. A lot of this mutual understanding depends on the maturity of the IxFP and the other person.

Introverted Feeling, like introverted thinking, is primarily focused on refining an internal system of criteria, far more than applying that criteria to affect reality. In this case it’s the criteria for “meaning”, and so they primarily approach emotion as something to understand and interpret, and they absorb it or contain it without seeming to do anything with it. What they are really doing is perfecting their understanding. Since it’s pretty much always “under construction”, they only express stuff directly when very necessary. They may also communicate their insights into “what things mean in the human condition” indirectly, and they certainly influence people this way. IMO, it’s not uncommon for these ideas to eventually go “mainstream”, and suddenly they are as much Fe protocol as they were once misunderstood expressions of an inner experience never well articulated before.


I really agree with this (side note: I've been wanting to log in to say how much I agree with everything you've said, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] , but I couldn't access the site). I experience myself to be empathetic towards others and I mistook this to mean that I was Fe (and I would test as an Fe user). However, both types can read emotions. It's just that Fe goes beyond that and would rather focus on the use of emotions to communicate between others. Hence why "Fi is the space within" and "Fe is the space between".

It's that I am not really focused on the 'dance' that people play. I can't easily understand what the other person is trying to do, so I don't react appropriately. An old friend calls me a social ditz for exactly this reason. It does set up the Fi user to be taken advantage of (which happens to me often).

An Fe user can at least tell what the other person is trying to "do" and can either choose to go along or not. It doesn't mean that the Fe user wants to conform... it just makes them aware of what they are NOT wanting to conform to and how they are NOT fitting into the social norm. In this way, it can look like Fi, but that's only because people think Fe vs. Fi is essentially conformity vs. non-conformity (which isn't what Fe vs. Fi is ...so they are wrong and aren't Fi users).

I don't think I agree with Fe being fake ...but it definitely can be manipulative.

I will try to come up with better ways to explain Fe vs. Fi than the flirting one, since people LIKE to think that they are bad at flirting...
 

Forever

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Socionics calls Fe "dynamic", and I like to apply this concept to Jungian functions, too. Fe is transitory. You express this dynamic emotional state, which is Fe. But this emotional state doesn't last. It goes away. Fe can be any kind of outer expression. It can create any kind of emotional atmosphere, but it never lasts. You can't "see" easily the feelings of a Fi user. They don't experience their feelings in terms of outer emotional expression.

Ehhhhh... this seems like a superficial description, very much removed.

you're just merely saying in a wordy way, Fe extroverts feeling and Fi introverts feeling.

This sounds incredibly divisive of the two classes. One will never come to appreciate the other. It just is. Blech.



And frankly my dear, it has always been about harmony, just in different modes.
 

chubber

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Extroverted feeling is not automatically conforming to external expectations or values. It’s the difference on where the feeling valuations are focused.
Extroverted feeling like extroverted thinking is basically focused on ordering reality because that’s what rational functions do and these are outer focused. Emotions for Fe types are primarily to be communicated to achieve a result.
That result is not necessarily harmony or conformity. They can use it to cause disharmony or to set themselves apart. They can and do use it to assert their own needs. Because the focus is on affecting the environment (as well as being susceptible to affect), then it makes sense that they operate with a common emotional language. This is what can confuse a Fi type. Fi types can pick up on nuances of emotion easily, but it doesn’t fit the often more simplistic meaning a person is overtly displaying. We really often just don’t know what to do with that information. Add Ne to it and you have decision paralysis.

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] ‘s experience of not being able to detect flirting well is not about emotion at all....that’s about the meaning assigned to behaviors. That post is a nice explanation of the 9 experience, but I notice all disconnect described is really about the labels given to emotions and behaviors, not in ability to sense the emotion itself. As is common with Fi when articulated well, many people likely can relate to that sentiment. A lot of people regardless of type are stumped by flirting and unsure how to interpret it.

However, Fe tends to view this meaning as objectively determined - because the purpose is to communicate and influence, which requires agreed upon terms. Many types struggle with this is in various ways, even some FJs (although I notice their real issue is knowing but not agreeing with or wanting to adjust). For IxFPs, it’s not uncommon for us to articulate inner human experiences that everyone goes through but no one talks about that much. It’s interesting how over time it can become a cliche. But I would expect anyone of any type to find themselves relating well to certain Fi expressions as Fi is ultimately not about the self but the inner human condition. A lot of this mutual understanding depends on the maturity of the IxFP and the other person.

Introverted Feeling, like introverted thinking, is primarily focused on refining an internal system of criteria, far more than applying that criteria to affect reality. In this case it’s the criteria for “meaning”, and so they primarily approach emotion as something to understand and interpret, and they absorb it or contain it without seeming to do anything with it. What they are really doing is perfecting their understanding. Since it’s pretty much always “under construction”, they only express stuff directly when very necessary. They may also communicate their insights into “what things mean in the human condition” indirectly, and they certainly influence people this way. IMO, it’s not uncommon for these ideas to eventually go “mainstream”, and suddenly they are as much Fe protocol as they were once misunderstood expressions of an inner experience never well articulated before.

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but I notice there is a particularly complementary relationship with ENFJs and INFPs where the ENFJ champions and mainstreams the Fi types inner experience (because as it turns out, it’s actually typically human). I think ENFPs and INFJs report something similar when it comes to iNtuition.

As I wrote in a past post, this is complicated when dealing with auxiliary functions, because for IxFJs, Fe is in service of the Pi ego. Fi in ExFPs can seem to have much in common with ExFJs for a similar reason.

So I thoroughly agree that an INFJ 4 will often display or seem to use mentality that people associate with Fi, but that’s because those traits aren’t really definitive of Fi or exclusive to it. That’s more the result of an introvert who prefers feeling and is an enneagram 4. When you factor in that Ni is very concerned with the inner nature of things or hidden dynamics / forces, especially within people, then there’s tons of overlap in their mentality with INFP 4s.

For all practical purposes, it’s hard to distinguish an INFP and INFJ when both are enneagram 4. I can usually tell in person rather easily, but it’s difficult to describe with intellectual terms. I think noting IxxP vs IxxJ mentality and behavioral patterns is the easiest way and it’s what made MBTI rather insightful as to deterring type, even if it has its flaws and can be inconsistent as a typing tool.

I have a concept for a function model that borrows a bit from socionics and Lenore Thompson that I think makes a lot more sense than the “tandem theory” currently popular on the internet (ie someone is “on the Fe/Ti axis”). I don’t think socionics is correct in how each function is experienced internally or how it appears, but I think the concept of what is conscious or unconscious is right. So an INFJ (NiFe in MBTI) would have conscious “access” to Fi as a mentality but often experiences it simply as a narrower version of Fe and somewhat superfluous. That’s often how I see IxFJs describing Fi. It’s like “whatever you can do, I can do better!” . Frankly, as an NP, that’s kind of how I see Ni. I know it’s deeper than Ne, but it just doesn’t seem to offer more on the surface and my preference for Ne thinking makes it seem sort of unnecessary.


One of these days, I'm going to get you to admit you're an INFJ.
 

Thelema

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Ehhhhh... this seems like a superficial description, very much removed.

you're just merely saying in a wordy way, Fe extroverts feeling and Fi introverts feeling.

This sounds incredibly divisive of the two classes. One will never come to appreciate the other. It just is. Blech.



And frankly my dear, it has always been about harmony, just in different modes.

"Dear"? Passive aggressive much?

Sorry, but typology is divisive in itself. It is categorization. Categorization that seeks to explain differences.

Oh yeah you can say it is about harmony if you have a different definition for harmony compared to most people.
 

Lauren Ashley

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But other than that, I do think INF 4s are more alike than not.

I think people tend to generalize J/P counterpart types as more different from each other than they actually are because "all the functions are different" when in reality their behavior can be quite similar, especially when the Enneagram type is the same.

Agreed. I've always found INFPs in real life to be more similar to me than most folks, even other Ns, and I don't think I've met any 4s yet (mostly 9s).

Sweet baby jeezus, say it again for the people in back. I am so tired of arguing certain aspects of my personality to others simply because I am capable of having a strong presence when I so choose. In reality, I am so introverted that it's painful, I just often appear otherwise because I like stimulation and novelty and attention. I am most certainly not always this way though... I am either "on" or "off." There is no in between really.

Still, I can't help but feel that I'm not really like anyone else pattern/behavior wise, which is just an overly individualistic POV that should be discarded. (But really? Who here is THAT much like me? All the NFJs Fe better than I do, and all the NFPs Ne better than I do).

Tell me more about this...do you have a thread somewhere? In which ways do you think your Fe differs?
 

Lauren Ashley

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Socionics calls Fe "dynamic", and I like to apply this concept to Jungian functions, too. Fe is transitory. Let's say you are pissed off. Very pissed off. You express this dynamic emotional state, which is Fe. But this emotional state doesn't last. It goes away. Fe can be any kind of outer expression. It can create any kind of emotional atmosphere, but it never lasts. Fi is actually more serious, and inner oriented. You can't "see" easily the feelings of a Fi user. They don't experience their feelings in terms of outer emotional expression. Fi users seem to experience more stable feelings, and hence why many of them think the Fe expressions are "fake".

Sometimes I can be so confused by how Fe/Fi are seen...My feelings are very stable and lasting. Some are expressed, some are not. So what are the feelings I experience inside -- Fi? Then my ISFP ex expresses his emotions outwardly all of the time. So when he is doing this, is this supposed to be Fe? Or something else?

Are you sure Fi users have more stable feelings? I think I could agree with that in relation to INFPs, but my experience with ISFPs suggests they can cycle through feelings very quickly.
 

Z Buck McFate

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One of the notions earlier expressed in this thread that I disagreed with is that Fe expresses emotion and Fi does not. FJs actually have a strong instinct to be very private about their feelings, INFJs (since this thread started explicitly about INFJs) are actually notorious for it. This belief comes from my own personal experience, from the experience of observing the trend with friends, and from the fact that - historically, in this forum - FJs (especially INFJs) have actually taken a great deal of crap for being so private about it.

But to comment on this "Fi focuses on the space within, Fe focuses on the space between" notion - is this meant to be in general? As if FPs in general focus on the space within (supposedly including the space within others) and FJs in general focus on the space between?

Exactly how much of a counterbalance do you suppose "Ni focuses on the space within, and Ne focuses on the space between" provides? It's like that element is skipped over.

It seems to me like it's a no-brainer that saying "Fi focuses on the space within (supposedly including others), and Fe focuses on the space between" is problematic. If FPs were truly better at focusing at the space within others - they wouldn't constantly be the ones to foster such an 'us vs. them' mentality in these discussions in the first place. I always feel like I'm in a herd of people devolving into monkeys when I get hooked by the discussion.

I feel slightly hooked right now, in spite of myself (because of past Fi/Fe discussions in this forum), but feel compelled to say something because I think it does the forum a disservice to have such self-serving descriptions of Fi posted. A person's ability to effectively see 'within' another person has far, far, far more to do with their self-awareness: their ability to be compassionate/accepting enough towards themselves that they can grant others the space to feel or think whatever they're feeling or thinking without the mind distorting information to compensate for what the ego can not handle listening to; how well they've cultivated an awareness of their own needs so that their unconscious does not inadvertently/manipulatively impose them on anyone else under the radar (again, because the mind distorts information when the ego can not handle the truth); and certainly there are more such factors that I am not aware of. <- Any 'type' definition that suggests one or another type has some kind of golden path somewhat exempting them from those very basic human frailties is doing the forum a disservice.

While type differences are real, there are definitely trends among certain types for what gets prioritized and what doesn't - and NFs in general do focus on ideals and potentials and whatnot, so their ego is probably more likely attached to this 'authentically sees others' qualifier - it's really annoying when anyone suggests their own type effectively inherently sees 'within' others. It's just as annoying to me when NFJs do it. I think it's safe to say that it's annoying to more people than not.

[And please notice I didn't say, "Any person who suggests one or another type has some kind of golden path somewhat exempting them from those very basic human frailties is doing the forum a disservice." I said, "Any 'type' description". This isn't about motivations, this is about a directly observable end product. I am criticizing the directly observable end product, and saying that I think it needs refining.]
 
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