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  1. #1
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Default Help Me Imagine the Image

    Will someone please explain to me what the fuck the Image is? For core Heart Types?


    My own Heart isn't much into maintaining an upbeat thread right now...but I really want to understand this so I can develop some compassion for image when I see it in a person as I have a real aversion to any kind of image spinning to a fault perhaps...like I don't want anything that isn't 100% true. Actually, maybe this thread will help me develop an image myself and then I'll become like super successful or something. I just don't know. I just want to understand what this is all about as it has never made any sense to me.

    @OrangeAppled @FutureInProgress @Haven @Giggly @chickpea


    @chubber <-not an image type but I think you actually have knowledge in this area...
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  2. #2
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I guess I never really took the time to study this from the enneagram perspective. But, but I know most of my processing and decision making is based on how I perceive myself, and also how that aligns with how others perceive me. This isn't necessarily as shallow as it it might seem, it feels important that my values, which aren't based in being viewed favorably and are centered on ideas like egalitarianism and self-reliance and empathy, somehow reflect in what shows in my life and how I present myself. It's about outward/inner-world consistency.
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  3. #3
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Not exactly sure what my core type is, but image is certainly enough of a "thing" for me to at least stress over it here and there. I will be candid and get into my mod role, and the internal stress the transition gave me as it's the most recent account of when my image made its face known to me.

    Everything is fine now and I'm settled into the role very well now, thanks to the support of many good people on this forum. But before the results were even announced, the big question on my mind was if my being a moderator would change people's perceptions of me, and ultimately, how these perception changes (if any) may alter my interactions with people on the forum. I wasn't concerned with the perception of me from most members, but of the members I interact with most, and of my closest friends on this forum. I was worried that I may potentially lose what I enjoyed so much on this forum, and what I got most out of this forum, personally, and that centered around these relationships. I knew that a title wasn't about to change who I am, my internal image, but was worried that external image, may change.

    I understand people have different perceptions of moderators, some might think highly of them, some not. (Speaking the title/position here, not the mods themselves) Some might view them as of higher status, some may see them no more than the typical member. It was within this wide range of perception that concerned me, because it was a new title to associate myself with, that hasn't yet been molded and manipulated to fit my internal perception of my self. @Qlip touched on this already, and is a point that rings so very true of myself as well, and that is, what I see in myself, is what I hope is perceived by others.

    I do understand that perception and image is a two way street, but for whatever reason, whenever there is an inconsistency between how I view myself, and how others view me, I place the blame on myself, as somehow not being "true" enough, outwardly. Whether someone sees that side of me favorably or not is of less significance, but if someone sees me differently because I miscommunicated my thoughts, ideas, my being, then I feel absolutely torn inside, like something is off and unsettled. At that point, I can almost feel fake to the point where I no longer feel I have ownership over my body.

    So how have I come to terms with the title? With the advise of a few very helpful friends, in that so long as I carry on being exactly the same Dreamer I know I am, no title will ever diminish or cause a rift in my image, and THAT is something I can do
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  4. #4
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Part of it for me is a freeing realization that the self is creation. How is it fake if you created it? It comes from you. Now, if it doesn't align with how you really feel/think internally, then it might be called inauthentic, but image types aren't consciously trying to fool people. When they fail to match their internal image, they don't experience it as a deception, but a failure to live up to their own values.

    So I am just going to echo @Qlip and say that it is ultimately about living in line with your values, hence the alternate title for the triad - heart types. It goes beyond morals or beliefs though, and it simply includes stuff you like. Generally, image types want to be what they like because it signals value to them, and they harbor a deep-seated fear of inherent worthlessness or even "badness" (negative value, not just lack of value). They strive to be what they feel has value, whether it's personal meaning (4), embodying loving/romantic qualities (2), or being an independent high-achiever (3).

    It becomes an image when the gap between your ideals and your reality is too large. Image types sometimes can't handle that gap because it brings on an intense sense of worthlessness they can't cope with. If they can't bridge the fact with real qualities, achievements, relationships, etc, then at least creating an impression of being their ideal is an ointment on the wound. Any positive feedback (or validation, as 4s can masochistically seek negative feedback to confirm identity) they get helps fill that void of worthlessness. Of course that is a viscous cycle, because when it is not based on something more real, this fuels a sense of shame - the core emotion image types struggle with. That of course fuels feelings of worthlessness and badness. The person focuses on keeping their image intact as a desperate attempt to cling at some sense of self-worth, btu often at the expense of really living according to their values. Rinse, repeat.

    It gets complicated when the person really believes their own image is who they are (and often it truly is PART of who they are), which is often the case for 2s & 3s. The person avoids examining how they really feel (often 2s - leading to resentment and manipulation) or what they really want (often 3s - leading to burnout and resentment), and so they don't act on those things and any validation they do get is for their image. So they still feel worthless because they aren't really being seen as a whole, only the carefully edited version, and the more this gets praised, the more edited they may feel they need to be. I think what they need is to be seen and validated even when they don't meet their own image. Their hidden parts they feel shame over need some love or at least acceptance as normal human qualities even if flaws. Image types often demand of themselves a level of consistency that is inhuman. They have to be smart, beautiful, loving, unique, etc, ALL THE TIME, IN EVERY WAY. That's not realistic and they set themselves up to fall short and feel ashamed.

    2s often say the need to hear they can be "selfish" - even if they are already being selfish, they don't see themselves that way because they consciously reject motivations that don't fit their image. What they are saying is they can be identified as a loving person, but still not be loving at every moment because they are merely human. Sexual 2s are more focused on feeling worthy via a seducer role, and they may turn themselves into sex objects or try to embody a partner's ideal; so they may need to be told they are lovable without needing to fulfill people's fantasies, especially all the time.

    3s often say they need to hear they are beautiful, admirable, successful, inspiring, etc, with flaws and failures (not in spite of them but maybe even because of them). Both metaphorically and literally, telling a 3 they look beautiful without makeup (without demeaning any creativity they may use to craft their face) can be powerful. Also, reminding them that accepting help doesn't mean they are a loser, but instead, it makes them a valued team member of sorts...things can be collaborative in life, not always competitive. They integrate at 6, so noting courage in them when they are being real and flawed and encouraging their humility when they accept support from others can help boost genuine self-worth.

    Of course, 4s simply need to hear they are significant and loved as they are, not needing to be extraordinary, but still noting what is special about them that is less imagey and more about relational qualities and pure motivations. Being told they are a good friend, that they make you laugh, that you find them kind and patient, etc, as opposed to raving over their sense of style, their deep insights or something they create (not saying to never note these things). This connects more to their deeper values, which is more like "good person" (1 integration) than "special person".

    In contrast with the other image types, I think 4s are often aware of how pretentious they can be and that it's a defense mechanism, but their actual image (the one they are less aware of) is not the ideal they consciously strive for, but instead it's an image of someone who falls short of ideals because they are so odd and misshapen that they cannot function successfully like a regular person. Yet, were they to be a regular person, they somehow wouldn't be in touch with these more meaningful ideals. It's kind of tricky to navigate that. It's similar to the 3, which is to love them warts'n'all without telling them they need to accept ordinariness (which can help them see that the ordinary is meaningful and thus accept ordinariness).

    I'm not sure if that is the kind of info you were seeking, but hope it sheds some light.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  5. #5
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Hmmm, I guess I never really took the time to study this from the enneagram perspective. But, but I know most of my processing and decision making is based on how I perceive myself, and also how that aligns with how others perceive me. This isn't necessarily as shallow as it it might seem, it feels important that my values, which aren't based in being viewed favorably and are centered on ideas like egalitarianism and self-reliance and empathy, somehow reflect in what shows in my life and how I present myself. It's about outward/inner-world consistency.

    Qlip was here.



    My first thought when I saw that you had was responded was a sort of calm background "okay good Qlip got the mention" and yet I can see plain as day in this moment that I failed to mention you (I swear I thought I had) and so now I'm doubly happy that you showed up because you just so kindly gave me one of the missing pieces to this broken puzzle of mine. (<-there's a lot here for me to sort through...there's a great deal of clean-up to be done...for so many reasons including having been raised by...I believe the reigning Queen of Image herself...my mother ENFJ e2. Thank you for kickin things off here. I appreciate it more than you know.)


    This makes perfect sense to me. What you describe is something a part of me feels I should be considering doing haha. What you describe sounds like a system of check and balances. Not shallow at all. In fact, in spite of my aversion that I make no secret of in the OP...there's nothing shallow about image from what I've seen...even the forms of it that I can imagine that drive me insane. This is a sophisticated thing that's all I know. But what you describe sounds like a very evolved person using a very evolved method of being.
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  6. #6
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    Not exactly sure what my core type is, but image is certainly enough of a "thing" for me to at least stress over it here and there. I will be candid and get into my mod role, and the internal stress the transition gave me as it's the most recent account of when my image made its face known to me.

    Everything is fine now and I'm settled into the role very well now, thanks to the support of many good people on this forum. But before the results were even announced, the big question on my mind was if my being a moderator would change people's perceptions of me, and ultimately, how these perception changes (if any) may alter my interactions with people on the forum. I wasn't concerned with the perception of me from most members, but of the members I interact with most, and of my closest friends on this forum. I was worried that I may potentially lose what I enjoyed so much on this forum, and what I got most out of this forum, personally, and that centered around these relationships. I knew that a title wasn't about to change who I am, my internal image, but was worried that external image, may change.

    I understand people have different perceptions of moderators, some might think highly of them, some not. (Speaking the title/position here, not the mods themselves) Some might view them as of higher status, some may see them no more than the typical member. It was within this wide range of perception that concerned me, because it was a new title to associate myself with, that hasn't yet been molded and manipulated to fit my internal perception of my self. @Qlip touched on this already, and is a point that rings so very true of myself as well, and that is, what I see in myself, is what I hope is perceived by others.

    I do understand that perception and image is a two way street, but for whatever reason, whenever there is an inconsistency between how I view myself, and how others view me, I place the blame on myself, as somehow not being "true" enough, outwardly. Whether someone sees that side of me favorably or not is of less significance, but if someone sees me differently because I miscommunicated my thoughts, ideas, my being, then I feel absolutely torn inside, like something is off and unsettled. At that point, I can almost feel fake to the point where I no longer feel I have ownership over my body.

    So how have I come to terms with the title? With the advise of a few very helpful friends, in that so long as I carry on being exactly the same Dreamer I know I am, no title will ever diminish or cause a rift in my image, and THAT is something I can do


    Another piece of the puzzle delivered... (I'm often blown away by the generosity of the members here and the quality of responses on this forum...which knowing what I know of you is why I imagine you decided to become a mod in the first place...as a way to support this quality and community. You are doing an amazing job.)


    What you wrote instantly reminded me of a several part job interview I was on for a position I was turned down for. <-A job interview process that...interestingly enough... required me to take the MBTI and a couple of other personality inventories that I have no recollection of.

    The job itself had a large creative and coordination piece...as well as what I had imagined to be a *teeny tiny, insignificant* supervisory piece <-And it's that second part that my inventory results betrayed me and ended up getting me fired prior to being hired. I remember the guy saying to me that my results demonstrated I would be too hands-off and allowing of a supervisor for what they were looking for to which I thought..."Only on the days I remembered I was a supervisor..."



    All of this is really touching on something for me that keeps slipping through my fingers some. What you are describing above sounds like an ongoing compassionate dance of shared meaning which is so beautiful and something I can only do with a SO. It is almost like an image can guide this process when you are dealing with people that are not intimately known to you like a caring tool. <-This is big for me in spite of the fact it didn't make a shred of sense. (like we already discussed a little on the side...questions will most likely follow as my understanding unfolds. Dreamer - thank you.)
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  7. #7
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Your reply actually got me thinking, this is all fine and great, I realize there is this inner conflict that can arise every so often, usually when big changes occur in my life and I must then regroup and ensure everything is once again, equalized, internally and externally, but the big question of the day then, is WHERE did this concern of mine even come from?? I've been aware of this for some time now, but shoot, for the life of me, I can't trace the source of this need.

    So, my friend, thank YOU for encouraging this thought of mine to come to light. I'm curious if I can come to some conclusions I never thought existed or needed to exist before your thread post.
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  8. #8
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Part of it for me is a freeing realization that the self is creation. How is it fake if you created it? It comes from you. Now, if it doesn't align with how you really feel/think internally, then it might be called inauthentic, but image types aren't consciously trying to fool people. When they fail to match their internal image, they don't experience it as a deception, but a failure to live up to their own values.

    So I am just going to echo @Qlip and say that it is ultimately about living in line with your values, hence the alternate title for the triad - heart types. It goes beyond morals or beliefs though, and it simply includes stuff you like. Generally, image types want to be what they like because it signals value to them, and they harbor a deep-seated fear of inherent worthlessness or even "badness" (negative value, not just lack of value). They strive to be what they feel has value, whether it's personal meaning (4), embodying loving/romantic qualities (2), or being an independent high-achiever (3).

    It becomes an image when the gap between your ideals and your reality is too large. Image types sometimes can't handle that gap because it brings on an intense sense of worthlessness they can't cope with. If they can't bridge the fact with real qualities, achievements, relationships, etc, then at least creating an impression of being their ideal is an ointment on the wound. Any positive feedback (or validation, as 4s can masochistically seek negative feedback to confirm identity) they get helps fill that void of worthlessness. Of course that is a viscous cycle, because when it is not based on something more real, this fuels a sense of shame - the core emotion image types struggle with. That of course fuels feelings of worthlessness and badness. The person focuses on keeping their image intact as a desperate attempt to cling at some sense of self-worth, btu often at the expense of really living according to their values. Rinse, repeat.

    Yah, this is exactly what I was seeking and there's now some light ahead showing me the way out of this this dark tunnel. In all of what you wrote I was provided the elements of future compassion.

    Fake... I can't say fake is the feel...even with the more troublesome expressions. My OP was born of "I can't take not understanding this anymore!" yes. And whenever I allow things to get to this degree my already dubious access to comprehension enhancing vocabulary is completely lost. And yet I had enough of my wits about me to make use of the word True. <-Not fake. Not overly-optimistic...or inauthentic...or false...or fictional...or loco madness... I made use of none of those words because frankly I'm a fan of most of it. I used Truth.

    Now, there's a great deal of Truth in reinventing yourself...becoming the you of your dreams. Becoming more true to who you feel you are. And I'm totally down with the "awkward phase" when an individual is staring down a significant transformation.

    It's being handed a script that I am not allowed to deviate from and avoid being the subject of some sort of overreaction or problem or manipulation or strange competition which will be experienced by me as extremely exhausting. You know what happens to my type when someone attempts to force the limits on us. And if I can't get 1,000 miles away from that kind of one-sided relationship...and I'm backed into a corner where I either honor the image or suffer the consequences...counterphobic 6 says..."I've got this Starry". Which for me then means the protective tranquility of constant alarms and sirens going off in my mind...because it registers with my system as deception as well as current or future repression/oppression.

    There's the issue of what is considered to be True by the collective in reality. But I am absolutely at home in the world of fantasy. As long as we can keep 6cp out of it...I don't care as much about the gap between image and the reality of the person. It is definitely more to do about being able to express my own Truth without causing chaos (I'm no match for the manipulative expertise of image types.)


    I'll come back to this.
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  9. #9
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    ^^A very important thing for me to have stated...a huge part of the issue as it pertains to image types that come with a script that cannot be rewritten...is now I'm lying if I want to get along you see? Which I won't do for this. So I try biting my tongue and dancing...and wait for something to give...which is never the script in my experience.

    I also struggle trusting a strong image type in general. This just happened to me...but has happened many times before and it is so frustrating. Being chastised for something the other person does or has done. In this recent experience...I was loudly blamed for having done something that I am/was personally neutral about...but still only did because I was under the impression that was what the other individual wanted or was accustomed to if that makes sense...based on them having done the same to me. <-That's always fun. Image scares me because it bends reality beyond the scope of the person. It often appears to provide an incredibly easy way not to take accountability for your own actions.

    These are the stuff I'm looking to understand...and understand how to effectively deal with when I can't escape from it.
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  10. #10
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    What I am getting from this is you find yourself unintentionally threatening the egos of image types, and their response to that is, well, unpleasant. You feel like you are being asked to bend yourself so as to prop up their image of themseves? And that image is unstable, so you are left on eggshells?

    Am I understanding this correctly?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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