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[Traditional Enneagram] Help Me Imagine the Image

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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Will someone please explain to me what the fuck the Image is? For core Heart Types?


My own Heart isn't much into maintaining an upbeat thread right now...but I really want to understand this so I can develop some compassion for image when I see it in a person as I have a real aversion to any kind of image spinning to a fault perhaps...like I don't want anything that isn't 100% true. Actually, maybe this thread will help me develop an image myself and then I'll become like super successful or something. I just don't know. I just want to understand what this is all about as it has never made any sense to me.

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] [MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION] [MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION] [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION] [MENTION=7991]chickpea[/MENTION]


[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] <-not an image type but I think you actually have knowledge in this area...
 

Qlip

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Hmmm, I guess I never really took the time to study this from the enneagram perspective. But, but I know most of my processing and decision making is based on how I perceive myself, and also how that aligns with how others perceive me. This isn't necessarily as shallow as it it might seem, it feels important that my values, which aren't based in being viewed favorably and are centered on ideas like egalitarianism and self-reliance and empathy, somehow reflect in what shows in my life and how I present myself. It's about outward/inner-world consistency.
 

Dreamer

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Not exactly sure what my core type is, but image is certainly enough of a "thing" for me to at least stress over it here and there. I will be candid and get into my mod role, and the internal stress the transition gave me as it's the most recent account of when my image made its face known to me.

Everything is fine now and I'm settled into the role very well now, thanks to the support of many good people on this forum. But before the results were even announced, the big question on my mind was if my being a moderator would change people's perceptions of me, and ultimately, how these perception changes (if any) may alter my interactions with people on the forum. I wasn't concerned with the perception of me from most members, but of the members I interact with most, and of my closest friends on this forum. I was worried that I may potentially lose what I enjoyed so much on this forum, and what I got most out of this forum, personally, and that centered around these relationships. I knew that a title wasn't about to change who I am, my internal image, but was worried that external image, may change.

I understand people have different perceptions of moderators, some might think highly of them, some not. (Speaking the title/position here, not the mods themselves) Some might view them as of higher status, some may see them no more than the typical member. It was within this wide range of perception that concerned me, because it was a new title to associate myself with, that hasn't yet been molded and manipulated to fit my internal perception of my self. [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] touched on this already, and is a point that rings so very true of myself as well, and that is, what I see in myself, is what I hope is perceived by others.

I do understand that perception and image is a two way street, but for whatever reason, whenever there is an inconsistency between how I view myself, and how others view me, I place the blame on myself, as somehow not being "true" enough, outwardly. Whether someone sees that side of me favorably or not is of less significance, but if someone sees me differently because I miscommunicated my thoughts, ideas, my being, then I feel absolutely torn inside, like something is off and unsettled. At that point, I can almost feel fake to the point where I no longer feel I have ownership over my body.

So how have I come to terms with the title? With the advise of a few very helpful friends, in that so long as I carry on being exactly the same Dreamer I know I am, no title will ever diminish or cause a rift in my image, and THAT is something I can do :D
 

OrangeAppled

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Part of it for me is a freeing realization that the self is creation. How is it fake if you created it? It comes from you. Now, if it doesn't align with how you really feel/think internally, then it might be called inauthentic, but image types aren't consciously trying to fool people. When they fail to match their internal image, they don't experience it as a deception, but a failure to live up to their own values.

So I am just going to echo [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] and say that it is ultimately about living in line with your values, hence the alternate title for the triad - heart types. It goes beyond morals or beliefs though, and it simply includes stuff you like. Generally, image types want to be what they like because it signals value to them, and they harbor a deep-seated fear of inherent worthlessness or even "badness" (negative value, not just lack of value). They strive to be what they feel has value, whether it's personal meaning (4), embodying loving/romantic qualities (2), or being an independent high-achiever (3).

It becomes an image when the gap between your ideals and your reality is too large. Image types sometimes can't handle that gap because it brings on an intense sense of worthlessness they can't cope with. If they can't bridge the fact with real qualities, achievements, relationships, etc, then at least creating an impression of being their ideal is an ointment on the wound. Any positive feedback (or validation, as 4s can masochistically seek negative feedback to confirm identity) they get helps fill that void of worthlessness. Of course that is a viscous cycle, because when it is not based on something more real, this fuels a sense of shame - the core emotion image types struggle with. That of course fuels feelings of worthlessness and badness. The person focuses on keeping their image intact as a desperate attempt to cling at some sense of self-worth, btu often at the expense of really living according to their values. Rinse, repeat.

It gets complicated when the person really believes their own image is who they are (and often it truly is PART of who they are), which is often the case for 2s & 3s. The person avoids examining how they really feel (often 2s - leading to resentment and manipulation) or what they really want (often 3s - leading to burnout and resentment), and so they don't act on those things and any validation they do get is for their image. So they still feel worthless because they aren't really being seen as a whole, only the carefully edited version, and the more this gets praised, the more edited they may feel they need to be. I think what they need is to be seen and validated even when they don't meet their own image. Their hidden parts they feel shame over need some love or at least acceptance as normal human qualities even if flaws. Image types often demand of themselves a level of consistency that is inhuman. They have to be smart, beautiful, loving, unique, etc, ALL THE TIME, IN EVERY WAY. That's not realistic and they set themselves up to fall short and feel ashamed.

2s often say the need to hear they can be "selfish" - even if they are already being selfish, they don't see themselves that way because they consciously reject motivations that don't fit their image. What they are saying is they can be identified as a loving person, but still not be loving at every moment because they are merely human. Sexual 2s are more focused on feeling worthy via a seducer role, and they may turn themselves into sex objects or try to embody a partner's ideal; so they may need to be told they are lovable without needing to fulfill people's fantasies, especially all the time.

3s often say they need to hear they are beautiful, admirable, successful, inspiring, etc, with flaws and failures (not in spite of them but maybe even because of them). Both metaphorically and literally, telling a 3 they look beautiful without makeup (without demeaning any creativity they may use to craft their face) can be powerful. Also, reminding them that accepting help doesn't mean they are a loser, but instead, it makes them a valued team member of sorts...things can be collaborative in life, not always competitive. They integrate at 6, so noting courage in them when they are being real and flawed and encouraging their humility when they accept support from others can help boost genuine self-worth.

Of course, 4s simply need to hear they are significant and loved as they are, not needing to be extraordinary, but still noting what is special about them that is less imagey and more about relational qualities and pure motivations. Being told they are a good friend, that they make you laugh, that you find them kind and patient, etc, as opposed to raving over their sense of style, their deep insights or something they create (not saying to never note these things). This connects more to their deeper values, which is more like "good person" (1 integration) than "special person".

In contrast with the other image types, I think 4s are often aware of how pretentious they can be and that it's a defense mechanism, but their actual image (the one they are less aware of) is not the ideal they consciously strive for, but instead it's an image of someone who falls short of ideals because they are so odd and misshapen that they cannot function successfully like a regular person. Yet, were they to be a regular person, they somehow wouldn't be in touch with these more meaningful ideals. It's kind of tricky to navigate that. It's similar to the 3, which is to love them warts'n'all without telling them they need to accept ordinariness (which can help them see that the ordinary is meaningful and thus accept ordinariness).

I'm not sure if that is the kind of info you were seeking, but hope it sheds some light.
 

Starry

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Hmmm, I guess I never really took the time to study this from the enneagram perspective. But, but I know most of my processing and decision making is based on how I perceive myself, and also how that aligns with how others perceive me. This isn't necessarily as shallow as it it might seem, it feels important that my values, which aren't based in being viewed favorably and are centered on ideas like egalitarianism and self-reliance and empathy, somehow reflect in what shows in my life and how I present myself. It's about outward/inner-world consistency.


Qlip was here.



My first thought when I saw that you had was responded was a sort of calm background "okay good Qlip got the mention" and yet I can see plain as day in this moment that I failed to mention you (I swear I thought I had) and so now I'm doubly happy that you showed up because you just so kindly gave me one of the missing pieces to this broken puzzle of mine. (<-there's a lot here for me to sort through...there's a great deal of clean-up to be done...for so many reasons including having been raised by...I believe the reigning Queen of Image herself...my mother ENFJ e2. Thank you for kickin things off here. I appreciate it more than you know.)


This makes perfect sense to me. What you describe is something a part of me feels I should be considering doing haha. What you describe sounds like a system of check and balances. Not shallow at all. In fact, in spite of my aversion that I make no secret of in the OP...there's nothing shallow about image from what I've seen...even the forms of it that I can imagine that drive me insane. This is a sophisticated thing that's all I know. But what you describe sounds like a very evolved person using a very evolved method of being.
 

Starry

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Not exactly sure what my core type is, but image is certainly enough of a "thing" for me to at least stress over it here and there. I will be candid and get into my mod role, and the internal stress the transition gave me as it's the most recent account of when my image made its face known to me.

Everything is fine now and I'm settled into the role very well now, thanks to the support of many good people on this forum. But before the results were even announced, the big question on my mind was if my being a moderator would change people's perceptions of me, and ultimately, how these perception changes (if any) may alter my interactions with people on the forum. I wasn't concerned with the perception of me from most members, but of the members I interact with most, and of my closest friends on this forum. I was worried that I may potentially lose what I enjoyed so much on this forum, and what I got most out of this forum, personally, and that centered around these relationships. I knew that a title wasn't about to change who I am, my internal image, but was worried that external image, may change.

I understand people have different perceptions of moderators, some might think highly of them, some not. (Speaking the title/position here, not the mods themselves) Some might view them as of higher status, some may see them no more than the typical member. It was within this wide range of perception that concerned me, because it was a new title to associate myself with, that hasn't yet been molded and manipulated to fit my internal perception of my self. [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] touched on this already, and is a point that rings so very true of myself as well, and that is, what I see in myself, is what I hope is perceived by others.

I do understand that perception and image is a two way street, but for whatever reason, whenever there is an inconsistency between how I view myself, and how others view me, I place the blame on myself, as somehow not being "true" enough, outwardly. Whether someone sees that side of me favorably or not is of less significance, but if someone sees me differently because I miscommunicated my thoughts, ideas, my being, then I feel absolutely torn inside, like something is off and unsettled. At that point, I can almost feel fake to the point where I no longer feel I have ownership over my body.

So how have I come to terms with the title? With the advise of a few very helpful friends, in that so long as I carry on being exactly the same Dreamer I know I am, no title will ever diminish or cause a rift in my image, and THAT is something I can do :D



Another piece of the puzzle delivered... (I'm often blown away by the generosity of the members here and the quality of responses on this forum...which knowing what I know of you is why I imagine you decided to become a mod in the first place...as a way to support this quality and community. You are doing an amazing job.)


What you wrote instantly reminded me of a several part job interview I was on for a position I was turned down for. <-A job interview process that...interestingly enough... required me to take the MBTI and a couple of other personality inventories that I have no recollection of.

The job itself had a large creative and coordination piece...as well as what I had imagined to be a *teeny tiny, insignificant* supervisory piece <-And it's that second part that my inventory results betrayed me and ended up getting me fired prior to being hired. I remember the guy saying to me that my results demonstrated I would be too hands-off and allowing of a supervisor for what they were looking for to which I thought..."Only on the days I remembered I was a supervisor..."



All of this is really touching on something for me that keeps slipping through my fingers some. What you are describing above sounds like an ongoing compassionate dance of shared meaning which is so beautiful and something I can only do with a SO. It is almost like an image can guide this process when you are dealing with people that are not intimately known to you like a caring tool. <-This is big for me in spite of the fact it didn't make a shred of sense. (like we already discussed a little on the side...questions will most likely follow as my understanding unfolds. Dreamer - thank you.)
 

Dreamer

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Your reply actually got me thinking, this is all fine and great, I realize there is this inner conflict that can arise every so often, usually when big changes occur in my life and I must then regroup and ensure everything is once again, equalized, internally and externally, but the big question of the day then, is WHERE did this concern of mine even come from?? I've been aware of this for some time now, but shoot, for the life of me, I can't trace the source of this need.

So, my friend, thank YOU for encouraging this thought of mine to come to light. I'm curious if I can come to some conclusions I never thought existed or needed to exist before your thread post. :)
 

Starry

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Part of it for me is a freeing realization that the self is creation. How is it fake if you created it? It comes from you. Now, if it doesn't align with how you really feel/think internally, then it might be called inauthentic, but image types aren't consciously trying to fool people. When they fail to match their internal image, they don't experience it as a deception, but a failure to live up to their own values.

So I am just going to echo [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] and say that it is ultimately about living in line with your values, hence the alternate title for the triad - heart types. It goes beyond morals or beliefs though, and it simply includes stuff you like. Generally, image types want to be what they like because it signals value to them, and they harbor a deep-seated fear of inherent worthlessness or even "badness" (negative value, not just lack of value). They strive to be what they feel has value, whether it's personal meaning (4), embodying loving/romantic qualities (2), or being an independent high-achiever (3).

It becomes an image when the gap between your ideals and your reality is too large. Image types sometimes can't handle that gap because it brings on an intense sense of worthlessness they can't cope with. If they can't bridge the fact with real qualities, achievements, relationships, etc, then at least creating an impression of being their ideal is an ointment on the wound. Any positive feedback (or validation, as 4s can masochistically seek negative feedback to confirm identity) they get helps fill that void of worthlessness. Of course that is a viscous cycle, because when it is not based on something more real, this fuels a sense of shame - the core emotion image types struggle with. That of course fuels feelings of worthlessness and badness. The person focuses on keeping their image intact as a desperate attempt to cling at some sense of self-worth, btu often at the expense of really living according to their values. Rinse, repeat.


Yah, this is exactly what I was seeking and there's now some light ahead showing me the way out of this this dark tunnel. In all of what you wrote I was provided the elements of future compassion.

Fake... I can't say fake is the feel...even with the more troublesome expressions. My OP was born of "I can't take not understanding this anymore!" yes. And whenever I allow things to get to this degree my already dubious access to comprehension enhancing vocabulary is completely lost. And yet I had enough of my wits about me to make use of the word True. <-Not fake. Not overly-optimistic...or inauthentic...or false...or fictional...or loco madness... I made use of none of those words because frankly I'm a fan of most of it. I used Truth.

Now, there's a great deal of Truth in reinventing yourself...becoming the you of your dreams. Becoming more true to who you feel you are. And I'm totally down with the "awkward phase" when an individual is staring down a significant transformation.

It's being handed a script that I am not allowed to deviate from and avoid being the subject of some sort of overreaction or problem or manipulation or strange competition which will be experienced by me as extremely exhausting. You know what happens to my type when someone attempts to force the limits on us. And if I can't get 1,000 miles away from that kind of one-sided relationship...and I'm backed into a corner where I either honor the image or suffer the consequences...counterphobic 6 says..."I've got this Starry". Which for me then means the protective tranquility of constant alarms and sirens going off in my mind...because it registers with my system as deception as well as current or future repression/oppression.

There's the issue of what is considered to be True by the collective in reality. But I am absolutely at home in the world of fantasy. As long as we can keep 6cp out of it...I don't care as much about the gap between image and the reality of the person. It is definitely more to do about being able to express my own Truth without causing chaos (I'm no match for the manipulative expertise of image types.)


I'll come back to this.
 

Starry

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^^A very important thing for me to have stated...a huge part of the issue as it pertains to image types that come with a script that cannot be rewritten...is now I'm lying if I want to get along you see? Which I won't do for this. So I try biting my tongue and dancing...and wait for something to give...which is never the script in my experience.

I also struggle trusting a strong image type in general. This just happened to me...but has happened many times before and it is so frustrating. Being chastised for something the other person does or has done. In this recent experience...I was loudly blamed for having done something that I am/was personally neutral about...but still only did because I was under the impression that was what the other individual wanted or was accustomed to if that makes sense...based on them having done the same to me. <-That's always fun. Image scares me because it bends reality beyond the scope of the person. It often appears to provide an incredibly easy way not to take accountability for your own actions.

These are the stuff I'm looking to understand...and understand how to effectively deal with when I can't escape from it.
 

OrangeAppled

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What I am getting from this is you find yourself unintentionally threatening the egos of image types, and their response to that is, well, unpleasant. You feel like you are being asked to bend yourself so as to prop up their image of themseves? And that image is unstable, so you are left on eggshells?

Am I understanding this correctly?
 

GavinElster

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I wanted to ask: how do image types differentiate between people seeking to glorify themselves/be superior and image type themes?

There seem to be plenty of inferiority/superiority/self-glorification things that go on in other types (8s...1s...7s....6s...). I don't think competitiveness or a desire not to be inferior is so hard to find in many.
 

Starry

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Your reply actually got me thinking, this is all fine and great, I realize there is this inner conflict that can arise every so often, usually when big changes occur in my life and I must then regroup and ensure everything is once again, equalized, internally and externally, but the big question of the day then, is WHERE did this concern of mine even come from?? I've been aware of this for some time now, but shoot, for the life of me, I can't trace the source of this need.

So, my friend, thank YOU for encouraging this thought of mine to come to light. I'm curious if I can come to some conclusions I never thought existed or needed to exist before your thread post. :)


I have so much admiration for the way you turn each moment into an opportunity for growth and discovery. This is what it means to live in abundance.


What I am getting from this is you find yourself unintentionally threatening the egos of image types, and their response to that is, well, unpleasant. You feel like you are being asked to bend yourself so as to prop up their image of themseves? And that image is unstable, so you are left on eggshells?

Am I understanding this correctly?


Well, I mean, that's pretty much what I believe is going down although I would say in the case of "swallow the image whole" image types I'm equally threatened by them...and I'm hoping there is something I can do or change with regards to my own communication and vibe... that doesn't require "swallowing the image whole" and mirroring what the person wants to see back to them...but likewise won't come across as threatening in a "hey, we all have our own opinions and that's OK!" way. I hope I am making sense...I really appreciate you taking the time to help me here because this is a serious thing for me that I struggle with.

 

OrangeAppled

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I wanted to ask: how do image types differentiate between people seeking to glorify themselves/be superior and image type themes?

There seem to be plenty of inferiority/superiority/self-glorification things that go on in other types (8s...1s...7s....6s...). I don't think competitiveness or a desire not to be inferior is so hard to find in many.

IDK, because it is similar to how all types will deal with fear & anxiety like head types or all types may have anger issues like gut types.
It helps to remember that image types are heart types, and it's about personal values or fundamental human emotional/relational needs. Every type arguably has an image that their ego projects and seeks to protect. It helps to remember that image types are heart types, and it's about personal values. So while, say, an 8 may seek to glorify themselves to maintain an image which protects their power, image types actually are really in touch with the core value behind everything. A 2 is in touch with the fundamental need of humans to feel connected and loved and they know were interdependent. When their image is threatened, it is questioning that value and/or that the value is their ultimate motivation. I suppose being an image type, I have a particular empathy for this, as it's not about particular goal so much as upholding a deeper value.

It's not a coincidence to me that most image/heart types have a feeling preference. 2 types are most frequently ExFJs with some ExFPs & occasionally ISFJs. 4s are almost always NFs and sometimes ISFPs. 3s are the only ones who are often Ts, but they are the heart type most out of touch with their heart. They have an issue of untangling objective goals with personal values, but the one value they tend to be very in touch with is independence (opposite of 2 - a truth that we need to have individual achievement and purpose in life), and so they seek to validate themselves through what they do, not directly from people (much more T mentality - tasks/objects above people). Obviously, 4s are in touch with a need for personal significance or having meaning in life.

Competitiveness in an image type is often from a scarcity mindset. It's not that they need to be the best, it's more that they fear that there basically isn't enough love to go around. I suppose the tl;dr explanation is that the motivation is different - image types are motivated by "heart needs".


Well, I mean, that's pretty much what I believe is going down although I would say in the case of "swallow the image whole" image types I'm equally threatened by them...and I'm hoping there is something I can do or change with regards to my own communication and vibe... that doesn't require "swallowing the image whole" and mirroring what the person wants to see back to them...but likewise won't come across as threatening in a "hey, we all have our own opinions and that's OK!" way. I hope I am making sense...I really appreciate you taking the time to help me here because this is a serious thing for me that I struggle with.


I had a feeling you probably talking about enneagram 2s, but I'm glad I waited for you to basically confirm that.

I had thought about that being case, and thought how it typically plays out. Let me know if any of this rings a bell...

2s have a vice of pride. This frustrates their ultimate goal - which is to feel loved, because they fear they aren't lovable and they really hit on a core image type fear - there isn't enough love/meaning/value in the world to go around. It's scarce, and we must be very good or nearly perfect to "win" it, hence the formation of an ideal image that the person feels they must live up to get love or have human value or find meaning.

The 2 pride means they not only build up an image of being really loving, giving, sexy, fun, etc, but they do so to attract love. The problem is, their pride keeps them from accepting the love which puts them in a vicious cycle. They have built up this image of not needing (because of shame over it) and overflowing with virtuous & lovable qualities themselves, and on some level they know that giving to get is not true generosity (that's a crack in their ideal image). But other people can see it. We know what they are doing. And so we want to give them what they need, out of compassion. Here, they may seem to flip the script because they can't accept what they need. Accepting what they need oddly threatens their image - it triggers their pride.

If they are a lower functioning 2, then they can get almost angry if you try to give to them. I have experienced 2s snubbing when you attempt to give to them - they get kind of elitist (I don't need anything from someone like you) or they become critical in some way. Other times, the 2 rejects what you give because on some level, they know it's giving to their image - they had to "earn" it and it reminds them of that. This is often when they criticize it as "not enough". They also get amnesia over what they received or what others do for others, but they clearly remember everything they did for you & others. This looks like ungratefulness on their part and like they are constantly being critical and judgmental of others (and how reflective of inferior Ti is this? this is probably more specifically ExFJ 2 than simply 2). That definitely leaves you on eggshells and drains people and pushes people away. Then they complain they aren't appreciated.*

When 2s complain about how ungenerous others are, it looks like they want people to be more like them (or how they see/present themselves). So you can adjust to their values...and then they get threatened by you. Because when they were complaining, they were winning. They were at the top. But when you come in and are just as kind or sexy or whatever, now they have to top you! You are threatening them, and they feel threatened because if love is scarce, then they have to compete for it.

I had an ESFP 2 friend who is major one-upper. I almost think she doesn't want you to do too much for her (deep down because she more consciously resents others not giving as much as she thinks she does), because then it raises the bar for what she has to do to be the MOST.
2s often like to give to people who will boost their image more than give back, if they are not very developed. Obviously, healthier 2s learn to accept graciously and genuinely love seeing others give and receive too (because love is no longer seen as a scarce commodity to them).

*This is a side point since sx 2s often don't see themselves as 2s - sx 2s primarily "give" by embodying the fantasy partner of someone else. That's why I throw in words like "sexy" and "fun" along with "giving". They may drop people once they've "seduced" them because they can't deal with a real relationship where they actually accept love from someone. They see themselves as a prize, even as they chase others as their prize. That may become confusing if they intensely pursue people (even friends) and then seem to lose interest once they "get" you (these are most likely to mistype as 7s or 4s, IMO & more likely to be ExFP 2s). I haven't experienced a "flip of the script" with these types, unless it's that they suddenly want you to chase them (?). I suspect the unhealthy ones have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style.

I suspect for an sx 2, suggesting they are an "ordinary type" like an ESFJ is a threat to their image of being seductively appealing. There's a unique factor which will appeal to them, whereas an ESFJ sounds like a mother hen. Unlike 4s, their sense of uniqueness not built on a feeling of defectiveness, but they want to stand out and capture attention. They also may want to be everything to everyone and fit the social romantic ideal. The ENFP prototype is a more romantic image than the ESFJ prototype, and it is associated more with adaptability and spontaneity, things which really appeal to a 2's image (because they feel like this overflowing energy that is whatever people need). Romantic comedies are chock full of ESFJ characters who are the People's ENFP. The female leads have it together and are often super ideal, except they have these little quirks that are supposed to be endearing.

So ENFP comes to represent their ideal image, even if that's not what ENFP actually means. They likely reject the negatives of ENFP because mistyped people tend to do that. No matter how healthy you are, if you are that type, then IMO, you should be able to identify many of the weaknesses in yourself at some point in your life. But as noted above, 2s rarely admit a flaw in themselves other than "I care too much!" or cute stuff like "I lose my keys all the time!".

I have no advice here...this is just what I see going with them. I admit my super evolved coping strategy is usually: "keep people at arm's length". :D
I do know that for 2s - don't one-up. I let them win and at what they think they want. They stay frustrated, but I can't force them to accept genuine care, and neither will I be forced into some stupid competition.
So in this case, they want to be the Ultimate ENFPs, and I suppose that threatens your identity (?). What is this triggering for you? It's clearly causing some anxiety... understandably.
 

GavinElster

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OrangeAppled said:
So while, say, an 8 may seek to glorify themselves to maintain an image which protects their power, image types actually are really in touch with the core value behind everything.

Right, this line is basically my interpretation I arrived at over time -- that there's some level of connection between a feeling function/value orientation and the heart triad, and this is what renders it different from a more basic "primal" concern with superiority/inferiority.

For instance, many instances of 7s/8s seem to have raw id type competitive energy (just operating on a pleasure principle). It's not so much a desire to find significance for oneself in the world as just a more primal desire to have all the rewards/dominate.
Many 9s seem to struggle with identity issues, like feeling ignored and more or less deciding to stay in that position.
Type 6 can gravitate not just to physical and mental security, but emotional security. In other words, threats to break one's spirit/confidence in oneself...and the more interplay with 7, the more there's a nervous pain-aversion/pleasure-denial aversion associated with it.
Obviously some 1s can be pretty darn vain about doing everything better than others, even if they still do it out of a compulsive need rather than just to sell themselves.

In my experience, being bad at what one does is a source of tension/embarrassment for almost everyone, regardless of type, but it's a lot more instinctual and less well-developed a sense of needing to feel significant or valued in non-heart types...and yes, heart types are often feeling types with the exception of 3 which can seemingly be either. Sometimes in the non-heart types operating on a pleasure principle, it seems it's as simple as not wanting to feel denied pleasure/reward.
It's kind of like many non-heart types may not even think in terms of genuinely being worth something, but may feel grief or threat at being dominated/insulted/threaten by others, and thus still be status-conscious (many 6s are like this, I think).
 

Starry

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I had a feeling you probably talking about enneagram 2s, but I'm glad I waited for you to basically confirm that.

I had thought about that being case, and thought how it typically plays out. Let me know if any of this rings a bell...

2s have a vice of pride. This frustrates their ultimate goal - which is to feel loved, because they fear they aren't lovable and they really hit on a core image type fear - there isn't enough love/meaning/value in the world to go around. It's scarce, and we must be very good or nearly perfect to "win" it, hence the formation of an ideal image that the person feels they must live up to get love or have human value or find meaning.

The 2 pride means they not only build up an image of being really loving, giving, sexy, fun, etc, but they do so to attract love. The problem is, their pride keeps them from accepting the love which puts them in a vicious cycle. They have built up this image of not needing (because of shame over it) and overflowing with virtuous & lovable qualities themselves, and on some level they know that giving to get is not true generosity (that's a crack in their ideal image). But other people can see it. We know what they are doing. And so we want to give them what they need, out of compassion. Here, they may seem to flip the script because they can't accept what they need. Accepting what they need oddly threatens their image - it triggers their pride.

If they are a lower functioning 2, then they can get almost angry if you try to give to them. I have experienced 2s snubbing when you attempt to give to them - they get kind of elitist (I don't need anything from someone like you) or they become critical in some way. Other times, the 2 rejects what you give because on some level, they know it's giving to their image - they had to "earn" it and it reminds them of that. This is often when they criticize it as "not enough". They also get amnesia over what they received or what others do for others, but they clearly remember everything they did for you & others. This looks like ungratefulness on their part and like they are constantly being critical and judgmental of others (and how reflective of inferior Ti is this? this is probably more specifically ExFJ 2 than simply 2). That definitely leaves you on eggshells and drains people and pushes people away. Then they complain they aren't appreciated.*

When 2s complain about how ungenerous others are, it looks like they want people to be more like them (or how they see/present themselves). So you can adjust to their values...and then they get threatened by you. Because when they were complaining, they were winning. They were at the top. But when you come in and are just as kind or sexy or whatever, now they have to top you! You are threatening them, and they feel threatened because if love is scarce, then they have to compete for it.

I had an ESFP 2 friend who is major one-upper. I almost think she doesn't want you to do too much for her (deep down because she more consciously resents others not giving as much as she thinks she does), because then it raises the bar for what she has to do to be the MOST.
2s often like to give to people who will boost their image more than give back, if they are not very developed. Obviously, healthier 2s learn to accept graciously and genuinely love seeing others give and receive too (because love is no longer seen as a scarce commodity to them).

*This is a side point since sx 2s often don't see themselves as 2s - sx 2s primarily "give" by embodying the fantasy partner of someone else. That's why I throw in words like "sexy" and "fun" along with "giving". They may drop people once they've "seduced" them because they can't deal with a real relationship where they actually accept love from someone. They see themselves as a prize, even as they chase others as their prize. That may become confusing if they intensely pursue people (even friends) and then seem to lose interest once they "get" you (these are most likely to mistype as 7s or 4s, IMO & more likely to be ExFP 2s). I haven't experienced a "flip of the script" with these types, unless it's that they suddenly want you to chase them (?). I suspect the unhealthy ones have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style.

I suspect for an sx 2, suggesting they are an "ordinary type" like an ESFJ is a threat to their image of being seductively appealing. There's a unique factor which will appeal to them, whereas an ESFJ sounds like a mother hen. Unlike 4s, their sense of uniqueness not built on a feeling of defectiveness, but they want to stand out and capture attention. They also may want to be everything to everyone and fit the social romantic ideal. The ENFP prototype is a more romantic image than the ESFJ prototype, and it is associated more with adaptability and spontaneity, things which really appeal to a 2's image (because they feel like this overflowing energy that is whatever people need). Romantic comedies are chock full of ESFJ characters who are the People's ENFP. The female leads have it together and are often super ideal, except they have these little quirks that are supposed to be endearing.

So ENFP comes to represent their ideal image, even if that's not what ENFP actually means. They likely reject the negatives of ENFP because mistyped people tend to do that. No matter how healthy you are, if you are that type, then IMO, you should be able to identify many of the weaknesses in yourself at some point in your life. But as noted above, 2s rarely admit a flaw in themselves other than "I care too much!" or cute stuff like "I lose my keys all the time!".


Holy shit.

I feel like I just graduated with an OA from the University of Validation. Thank you so much Professor




I have no advice here...this is just what I see going with them. I admit my super evolved coping strategy is usually: "keep people at arm's length". :D
I do know that for 2s - don't one-up. I let them win and at what they think they want. They stay frustrated, but I can't force them to accept genuine care, and neither will I be forced into some stupid competition.
So in this case, they want to be the Ultimate ENFPs, and I suppose that threatens your identity (?). What is this triggering for you? It's clearly causing some anxiety... understandably.


Maybe if my e2 Mom allowed us kids to develop identities that weren't merely an extension of her's... my identity would feel threatened...

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haha No. I actually don't know but admit there's a lot of crossover between 4w5 and 7w6...and I like me some good, old-fashioned flaws. I do take a sense of pride in my NFP people's willingness to lead with their flaws...to have the courage to say "I'm just a fucked-up girl looking for my own piece of mind"... And so to be taken over in a way by primarily women that are runnin the no-flaw, 100% sexy and fun and cute 100% of the time game...it's blasphemous to me really. And fuckin no one's turning Fi into a bastard on my watch feel me? <-okay I'm totally kidding. But I would consider this to be something that feels threatening in some way.

There's definitely a twilight-zone frustration in all of this for me having been raised by a less than healthy 2...that to this day can image spin with the Gods (and yes, my Mom was also a miracle of a human being having been born...completely flawless.) I do love her although I also find her to be so "All About Her" and subsequently a big pain in the ass in a..."Let's work together as a family to make each and every moment another opportunity for me to get another hit of awe-struck-love from someone that doesn't know the real me."

The trigger for me is merely that I think this kind of thing is just flat out wrong. I mean, while I can't understand why everyone else doesn't see through it...I do understand that they themselves don't quite get that they are in no way NFP? But even unknowingly...I don't like acts. I don't like narcissism that exploits and uses others to put themselves out ahead. I see so much fucked-up advice go out that if done in that way would actually do damage to the ENFP in a relationship. I see the ruins of old threads that could have been awesome if they weren't just a big image enhancing fest of shit no actual NFP relates to. And finally I think of how much of a struggle it actually is to live life as an NFP...I think of young NFPs like Magic Qwan who constantly thinks he isn't cute, fun and sexy enough to be an ENFP... to me it fucks with everything so big egos can get bigger. <-Is there a way beyond that frustration for me?


The trigger is I just think it is wrong and hurtful and only one person benefits.
 

Starry

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With regards to 2s in general though OA I would agree...just let them win. That's the only conclusion that has ever made sense.
 

Tilt

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For me, my e3 image compels me to have people see me as valuable so I have a competitive streak for people to notice me. However, since I am also 359, I revel in the idea of people underestimating me and not knowing what hit them... I enjoy unexpectedly impressing others or playing dumb when the situation calls for it. Saying all that, I am usually known for my bluntness. I will hold back if the situation warrants it.

My good friend once said that I come off very demure and unassuming but when I have a goal, people don't often see me coming.
 

Starry

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For me, my e3 image compels me to have people see me as valuable so I have a competitive streak for people to notice me. However, since I am also 359, I revel in the idea of people underestimating me and not knowing what hit them... I enjoy unexpectedly impressing others or playing dumb when the situation calls for it. Saying all that, I am usually known for my bluntness. I will hold back if the situation warrants it.

My good friend once said that I come off very demure and unassuming but when I have a goal, people don't often see me coming.

^^Your old, enlightened soul image... :wink:




I need to go back and reread what OA wrote because I believe she touched on some of this but is the image primarily considered a tool with which to best navigate a variety of different social systems? Like, something that has already been thought through and you can sorta snap into it so you no longer have to focus heavily on your in-the-moment presentation but are then made free in a way to focus on other things? <-For some reason this is how I would imagine an e3 using an image...
 

Tilt

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^^Your old, enlightened soul image... :wink:




I need to go back and reread what OA wrote because I believe she touched on some of this but is the image primarily considered a tool with which to best navigate a variety of different social systems? Like, something that has already been thought through and you can sorta snap into it so you no longer have to focus heavily on your in-the-moment presentation but are then made free in a way to focus on other things? <-For some reason this is how I would imagine an e3 using an image...

Yes, precisely. My image is basically second nature to me. I use it to shield others from seeing my deepest vulnerabilities. The only way I really understood the mechanisms of my behavior was through 1000s of hours of introspection and the constant feedback loop from others. The persona was so ingrained into my subconscious, I struggled a lot in settling on a type for several years. I actually looked down on e3 for YEARS. Ha (in part due to being resentful and furious at a couple e3 EXFJ older males who I have since made up with).
 
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